Senate Community Affairs Legislation Committee, , 1:06:20 to 1:29:21
Discussion focuses on a new aged care facility in Darwin and concerns regarding community access to respite care services during program transitions.
Topics: Infrastructure, Health
Speakers: Cathy Milfull, David Pocock, Greg Pugh, Unknown Speaker, Michelle Ananda-Rajah, Blair Comley PSM, Dorinda Cox, Hon Bridget McKenzie, Hon Malarndirri McCarthy, Julia Atkinson, Sonja Stewart, Susan Trainor
>> Thank you, Chair. Um, I have some questions regarding the um, age care facility that's been announced for the >> Minister, you'll be pleased to hear
>> I was just telling Senator McKenzie that the minister was a him. [laughter]
I was going to bet I'm assuming it's a
>> without the microphones on. But anyway, >> You have the pool. >> Um, thank you. Uh, with regards to the new age care facility that's been announced in Palmyon by the prime minister in January. Um, how many extra
>> Michael, sorry. Michael, I think you need to be on mute.
>> Yes. Can we please just a reminder for those online to mute your microphones? Thank you. So,
>> okay, here we go again. Um, with regards to the new age care facility that the prime minister announced at the end of January in Palmyon, Northern Territory, how many um extra beds and what will be the additional capacity of this facility for greater greater Darwin. >> Thanks, Senator. Kathy Mil, acting assistant secretary, market and workforce division. Um, look, essentially it's a new um 12 uh
residential care home um that the aim is to be built um you know on over the next
um Senator the aim is it to meet the
diverse needs of the Dar greater Darwin community um including obviously Aboriginal tourist straight islander people in the community people with dementia. So um probably the some of the key things senator is that it would be built in line with new you know dementia design principles. Um the intention is >> and um given the needs in Darwin, uh what is being done to expedite delivery division. Um we've been through some
negotiations with the Northern Territory the Palmyon site as well as $10 million worth of groundworks to support that. They have also indicated they'll expedite the uh required development approvals for that site. Uh and we have
worked with a really experienced residential age care home who has built similar services uh across the >> Understood. And apart from track record with respect to this provider, what other considerations were taken into account when you chose this pro >> U Senator, I think well obviously we wanted u the providers to be a safe and quality care. Um as uh my colleague mentioned really we did want to deliver quickly. So um there was a focus that they had a track record on on sort of larger construction projects as well as the age care experience. Um the aim was that they would contribute any additional costs as well to the project. Um and of course um that they could support culturally safe care. So um we did look at their record in that space sort of elsewhere in the country. Um and >> And how much has the government invested in age care capital projects since 2022. >> Um so Senator we've basically now committed almost 1 billion um the government so it's at 993 million. >> Great. Uh, Senator >> Is it about the um commitment? Uh, >> Can I poke up? Just otherwise I'll sit. I'll sit. have been reporting to me that they can no longer access Bangiri age care
restbite in the act using supported home they could access them when they're on home care packages. Now they're at
then my support colleagues might jump in as well. Um Senator my understanding is that um essentially if you like baring is largely um operated from a comare perspective on a private basis senator. So um they have charged you know had these services available both pre um one nove before and after one november um there are private fees senator um I think what's changed is we have um understand that before one November some people were using their home care package fees to if you like supplement those private fees so that's the difference if you like between before one November and after but Greg if you might want to add to the post one
>> Uh do you want me to keep going or do you want another?
that there'd be no worse off. So why they they could access uh restbite care when they had home care packages now that they've got a supported home package. Despite, you know, in the in these hearings in in that sort of um inquiry we did into the the transition,
new system and things would actually be better. So what's what's going on here? You you'd know how hard restbite is to access in the ACT.
>> Yeah, thanks Senator. So I agree you first assistant secretary of the access and home support division. So probably two parts to your question. First is around the policy. So you are right. Support home service list does give access to the following restbite types. It gives you access to flexible restbite. Uh that gives you support and assistance in an older person's home during the day or overnight. Um and also the community and center B centerbased restbite. So that's providing support through small day outings or structure group activities. Um the service type cottage restbite is not available under um the support at home program. However, it is accessible under the commonwealth home support program. So if you are in the support at home program, you can still access uh cottage restbite uh simultaneously uh to getting it with CHSP uh and you can do that um by getting a referral for the CHSP cottage restbite. So uh you can either do that by getting a support plan review uh undertaken or you can get an urgent referral for CHSP cottage restbite and you do that by contacting the my age care contact center. So it is it is a change uh but the access to the cottage restbite service is still there and then I think there's a secondary issue uh which with which Miss Miller uh was just going through around then access in the in the broad once you're approved for it.
>> So how are these Cambarans no worse off?
Uh, Senator, I might take that. Susan Trainor, assistant secretary, residential care division. As I think we talked about at the last hearings, uh, the no worse off principle is specific to, uh, the amount of contribution in dollars that a person makes to their care. So, um, at the announcement of the reforms on the 12th of September 2024, um, Minister Wells noted, a no worse off principle will provide certainty to people already in age care and they won't make a greater contribution to their care. So it's a very specific principle and is not about all matters to do with age care around service provision and what may or may not be on service lists.
worse off. And I think when you talk to But so so just to go back to it sounds like there's a lot of hoops to jump go to um Barangiri on your supported home um packages. Um, so they have to
>> That's right. And so
>> isn't the government shutting down CHSP?
Senator, the commitment to transition the CHSP program um is uh currently committed to do so no sooner than 1 July 2027. uh as we gave evidence at the um inquiry hearing last week uh you know there is absolute merit in retaining a whole raft of either FIFA service or block block funded programs cottage restbite we know that people um are it's a it's a great service for people and so that is absolutely forming part of our consideration around what the future of that service looks like post 2027. So,
I'm just like why were these why were productive because you got to jump through all these ridiculous hoops. So what's the what's the intent behind
>> So a couple of things on that senator is not about saving money at all. Uh the support home service list as I said still gives you access to flexible Rex bite and community and centerbased restbite. uh through the broad consultations that were undertaken on the support at home service list that went on for uh multiple years before it was agreed by government um cottage restbite did not feature because there was a view that it would be more readily maintained and accessible through the commonwealth home support program. So that was the way that um the distinction was made between the two. Having said that, we're not um deaf to the to the cause of the community. We understand that people would like to be able to access cottage restbite either through using the support at home funding or be able to access it um more in general and so this forms part of our ongoing review processes into what's uh on the support at home service list and
So why have you decided for cottage
I just senator um POC in the opening statement um it's it's quite clear around asking officials to give their opinion about why things are happening. So maybe yeah what I'm trying to do is be helpful around I I know what you're asking um and I think officials are are are capable of answering that question. And I think we just tread the line very carefully in relation to asking them about why what their intention is or what their opinion is in relation to why these things are happening. I would I would ask that that possibly those are directed to the minister at the table around um government and those decisions rather than officials. Uh they are here to assist us from a departmental point of view in relation to answering questions um that are within their remit. Uh so I would just maybe caution you in in thinking about who you're asking the question in what frame.
of hoops you have to jump through to CHSP when the government has been very
>> I am going to throw
>> clarify something at the Sorry Mr. Pew. I just wanted to clarify something. um Senator um which was your characterization about what's happening on the 1st of July 27 2027 if that's okay because I think you're using terminology around abolishing or and something is ending and I just wanted to before Mr. Hugh went into the Mr. if you went into the detail to say that the actual commitment um and what the government has stated um a couple of years ago was that uh the CHSP will move into supported home no earlier than uh 1 July 2027. So I think that's I just wanted to check in terms of um what how do how do we answer that question because it's not about the program being abolished and
>> so CHSP will continue or it ends next
>> That's a decision for government
>> but they've already said it it'll
>> so it says no. So yeah so it says no earlier then. It doesn't say on that date or by that date. It says no earlier than the 1 July 2027 is what the government has committed to.
>> Okay. But their intention is to move it into support at home.
>> So the government has made an a commitment that um that it will move into support at home but not in terms of the details and not with the time frame.
>> M semantics. Um Senator I think >> what is already occurring prior to any transition is there already consultations happening with people in the sector to look at what the consequences of that transition would be. So I think the commitment no later no earlier than 1 July 2027 was effectively to to ensure there's a smooth transition.
>> Thanks for coming and I'll come to consultation later on but maybe Mr. Pew.
Uh well Senator I was basically going to say the same thing that uh Miss Stewart said and just referring to my previous statement around we know the importance of cottage restbite ongoing. So I mean it's a it's a broad statement to say that CHSB is being shutting down and then saying with that cottage restbite is just going to be eliminated. So I just want to make that point that that is not the case or not forming part of our advice. But I will just ask Miss
>> Sure. Uh Julia Atkinson, assistant secretary access and home support division. So um Senator, I will refer back to some of the evidence I provided at the Senate inquiry on Friday. Um there's a a bit of a um perhaps a um misunderstanding in the community uh around what support at home could look like in the future. Um and if we look back to uh what the Royal Commission initially recommended, they recommended that we have one in home age care program. Um and they also recommended that some of the services in that program be funded through block funding. Um the government of the day uh did not fully uh agree to that second recommendation but undertook to continue consultation and consideration and the current government continues to consider and consult on that matter of funding model. Uh so that is an open question that government has not taken a decision on. um government has been clear that CHSP will not roll into support at home until 2027 at the soonest. That is the commitment to date and anything further any further detailed decision around that uh remains with government.
>> Okay. Thank you. So I mean I can see what carers are saying about just how complicated this is to try and um deal with when you also have you know a job and and and other commitments. Um so to be clear um you have to go through CHSP now to get um cottage restbite but when CHSP transitions into support at home no earlier than July 2027 at some future date decision of government um you'll have to be assessed through support at
>> that that remains to be a decision of government however uh you know just taking in your points around if there is complexities around the way that it's currently working, uh we would obviously want to move to a system that was as easy for people to access as they possibly can. So there's no decision, but that's that's the broad principle that's guiding our thinking and advice.
>> So the Cambarans who are telling me that they can't um access Barangiri uh with their supported home package, but they could with their home care package. Um what do I tell them? I think
it's a matter of ring my age care, get an urgent referral and get access to Cottage Rest by that way.
>> Okay. Thank you. I'll I'll pass that on. Um and then just to to go to consultation um and the the uh $10 million um for restbite um ear markd which I really thank the government for. It's a it's a really important and I guess when we're talking about Barangiri this is uh half of the acts restbite beds. It's it's it's incredibly in uh Quan, I think you you said that you've met with local providers to determine viable options and I was interested which providers um you've met
>> Senator uh Kathy Mil here again, acting assistant secretary of market and workforce division. Um look, I can certainly provide you with a full uh list um senator um on notice. Um I've attended some of those meetings. So um I could certainly from memory uh with Goodwin and Waral for example, but um my state and territory colleagues. So the ACT network if you like have met with you know I think you know a you know most of I think the you know up to there's up to 16 if you like providers. Um, and I think they've met with Yeah, I'd say approximately 10 Senator, but I'm happy to give you that information or notice if you'd like specifics.
>> Okay. Thank you. That that'd be great. Um, and then one of the other things which I was I was I was pretty disappointed reading in the the quan and kind of goes to the secretary's point around consultation is that you basically said you recognize the strong uh community interest in respite. um and yet you haven't consulted with any community groups or or people outside of the the pro providers and I was just interested whether you think that sort of consultation is is important.
Um Senator I think look in at this point of this journey if you like I think we have been consulting you know on some quite technical details with ACT health and community services director and those providers we really wanted to see um you know what's the best you know most viable option um to get those beds online um before [clears throat] the date that um you know bar and giri has is targeted to close. So um if you like Senator I think it's been very much focused on that infrastructure solution um and making sure those beds are available so as you say we don't end up in a situation that's worse. Um I think both um the department the government uh and certainly act government you know really cognizant of the need to you know continue to work together. This is not the end of the story. Um you know this is if you like I think solving one plank of that restbite problem. Um but I know I meet personally regularly with the directorate. Um we're very keen to continue that work together um and start actually and make sure we're also community you know communicating together with the community. Um so I know there are some for example meetings coming up where there'll be joint representation and the idea is we can you know listen to the concerns of the community um and start to think about you know not just the $10 million if you like but what's you know what are the other issues and what do we you know what is a community looking for beyond that point if you like so hopefully
that's helpful mil surely surely it should be the other way around surely you want to consult with the community to ensure that you're then designing the solutions that will work for the community because that's what restbite is about is is providing restbite to the community. So I'm interested like why are you sort of full steam ahead on just this is the solution and then potentially there on the track there'll be some sort of ticker box with community surely community should have a say in giving you feedback on how baring has been working how the other um cottage restbite options have been working and then you as a department can say okay well these are obviously the solutions we should be heading towards
>> look I think senator perhaps for me it's just the difference between working out what those viable options are and making sure that um we have both governments agree to what are those possible options and then I think the next step is to really have those discussions. So say we went down a particular road um you know opening that up to see okay if you like now we've sorted out what the location might look like what would actually the services look like cuz I think um a lot of the uh questions from the community go not necessarily to the location but to how those services would be delivered and what that might look like and who would be delivering them.
>> Thank you. I mean there's a lot of anxiety around the looming um June 2027 shutdown of Barangiri and so maybe you could just uh provide some information about what options you're exploring and whether or not there there's a sort of firm commitment for there to be no loss in loss of beds um in in mid next year with Bangiri shutting down. Um, Senator
looks probably a question for government but I think I just say I think we are very close um at um you know getting to a a position that if you like that both government is uh comfortable with. So I would expect there would be some um more information that we could release you know reasonably soon um that hopefully will give community an idea of the proposed way forward and then those further discussions can also happen.
>> I I'm keen to follow up on this but possible. Thank you. Thank you,