Senate Community Affairs Legislation Committee, , 8:54:03 to 9:32:59
The Domestic, Family and Sexual Violence Commissioner discusses oversight of the National Plan and efforts to address technology-facilitated abuse.
Topics: Family and domestic violence, Child safety
Speakers: Micaela Cronin, Wendy Askew, Corri McKenzie, Kerrynne Liddle, Dorinda Cox, Anna Lutz, Hon Katy Gallagher, Malcolm Roberts, Michael Lye, Speaker 44
the department of social services in relation to outcome 2, families and communities and crossportfolio and indigenous matters and invite questions. Um I would also uh invite or like to welcome the director of Australian Institute of Family Studies um Miss Liz
>> we've got a um acting we've got an acting director.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah. In Liz's place. Yeah.
>> Is there an opening statement?
>> No.
>> Okay. Um so the officers from the Institute of Family Studies which I know Senator Roberts has a question for um the uh I also welcome the domestic family violence sexual violence commissioner Michaela Miss Michaela Cronin u Cronin did you want to come to the desk? Do you have an opening statement that you would like to make?
>> No. No.
>> She's making her way. she may like to join you at the desk and also welcome the national commissioner of a originalinal tourist island on the children young people Miss Uh I'm not sure if she has an opening statement you could know. Good. And um you may like to join us at the desk too, Miss Hunter. So I'm sure someone will have a question I will now hand the call to Senator Ascu.
your time this evening. Hopefully we won't keep you all night or even to 11. Um my first uh questions are to actually regarding the commissioner actually. So when the DFSV commission was announced in 2021, it was described as a body that would provide national leadership, drive accountability, coordinate across jurisdictions, and oversee implementation of the national plan. Do you agree that implementation oversight was a core part of the commission's original purpose?
>> Thank you, Senator. Yes, Commissioner Michaela Cronin. Uh, thank you for the question. Yes, I would agree that that is part of the commission's purpose and responsibility.
>> Excellent. So, in practice today, does the commission have the authority to direct agencies, require timely data, and hold departments publicly accountable for delivery failure under the national plan?
The commission was established as a non-stutory body uh as a executive body within the department of social services. We do regularly uh request data from relevant agencies to inform our reporting uh and um receive cooperation across government for that.
>> Okay. So is there any the areas that you of the core oversight functions that you feel that you um can't get access to?
Senator, one of the things that we one of our recommendations in our yearly report to Parliament last year was that um in in the commission's view, it would be valuable to have uh greater powers and authority to to request and compel data from some agencies. Um having said that, as I said before, we have received cooperation around that.
>> So the way you were structured when you initially set up, does that restrict the greater powers? Is that is that where the limitation is?
uh it doesn't restrict our it doesn't restrict who we're able to ask information from. It mean what what what we we weren't given powers uh to as a independent body to compel data. No.
>> Yeah. So we noticed that in your in the 2025 annual report you recommended creating a new commonwealth implementation and delivery oversight mechanism. So why do you think the u or believe that creating a separate oversight body is preferable to strengthening the existing commission's own authority and statutory powers to fulfill its mandate?
>> Okay. So commission we've we uh sorry senator we we recommended a number of things to act in concert together. One of them um as you've already uh referred to is the increasing powers to the commission itself to be able to gather information and data to report on the impact of the national plan. We also recommended that there needs to be uh increased uh oversight and and coordination to drive implementation at a national level. the Office for Women um has been tasked with increased coordination across government already to do to do that. Um and they they were both tasked with and and received some additional funding to do that. So we recognize that they do um currently have an enhanced coordination function. However, the commissions in in our analysis of the progress of the national plan, our view is that there uh is room for as with all complex policy issues like this really improved bringing together across portfolios and I'm aware that that is uh being taken up by the um by the relevant ministers including the minister sitting at the table as part of the women's and ministers and minister safety women's safety ministers council to look at how that can be greater enhanced.
>> Okay. So, we're expecting a new new announcement, Minister. Not yet. Not can't bring us up bringing it up here. We could have had a an exclusive. Um, so you've identified that responding to domestic family and sexual violence requires quarterly dashboards, whole of government visibility, and consistent monitoring. Right now, are you able to provide quarterly dashboards to cabinet? Ensure DF domestic violence DFS. Shorten remains a priority access across secretaries and coordinate agencies to deliver consistent a consistent action. Been a long day.
>> Senator, we really welcomed when national cabinet made domestic family and sexual violence one of its top six priorities and uh as you've as you've pointed out what we recommended was that there needed to be a consistent dashboard reporting to national cabinet. uh that wouldn't be just that wouldn't be the commission's responsibility to do that. That would be through and and cabinet have tasked the women's ministers and women's safety ministers council with reporting um and they have do report to cabinet on on the progress against the plan.
>> So is there any powers or tools that you're missing from your perspective that could enhance what you are able to
report on? Senator, as I as we've said, the our report does recommend that we would be able to serve government and the community better in really keeping an eye on progress and ensuring that government is able to drive the progress that it's committed to and that we have cross parliament commitment to um if the commission could really uh compel data more more successfully.
>> Okay. So without those compulsion powers that you you've recommended, do all departments and agencies comply in a timely manner to request from the commission for data? It's always an
>> It it is always an issue for everybody. One of the things that Senator, we have really tried to build because the the commission is as you've said it's a new body and we're getting everybody used to um reporting on on in the in a way that um is developing over time. So we have worked we've tried to work very collaboratively across portfolios and across jurisdictions to ensure that we are we are not increasing the burden of reporting. Um because what we've what we often hear from frontline services is if we ask a whole set of different questions then it ends up being them that has to provide the extra information. So we're trying to align our reporting with existing reporting um so that it is most effective in informing government strategic policy.
>> That makes sense. So obviously you don't sort of keep records of who hasn't reported in times at this point in early stages of the commission. That's right. Down the track I would expect that you would develop some sort of reporting mechanism for where there are you know lengthy delays or not being responded to.
>> Absolutely. And that's a very good characterization. We are building building that reporting process at the moment and it will mature over time and over time we will become um able to be clearer about where we're just not able to get the data and information we need from and we would be including that in our yearly report.
>> Is there any at this early stage are there any that you that you have got concerns about at this point or is it
the things I would say so so no particular agency no that I mean fundamentally we've had really collaborative responses. One of the things that has been tricky is where we're trying to gather and compare data across jurisdictions when they're counting different things. So if I had a concern, that would be it. That that if we're really going to understand where in interventions and investment is having an impact, we need to be able to compare apples with apples, not not oranges. And at the moment that I think everybody recognizes that's tricky.
>> Okay, that makes sense. But um obviously will be interesting to monitor that going forward at future budget estimates as well.
>> And we will be reporting on that, Senator.
>> Yeah. Excellent. Just on a different um the 2025 annual report doesn't reference problem gambling as a contributing factor to domestic violence. I was just um noticed that it mentions alcohol 13 times and drugs eight times, but gambling isn't mentioned once. This is despite Anrose research in 2020 showing a clear link between problem gambling and the perpetration of domestic violence. So why was gambling not mentioned anywhere in the 2025 annual report given the strong evidence linking it to domestic violence?
>> Uh Senator, one of the things that we uh really tried to focus on in terms of the the yearly report last year was drawing on other other inquiries and reports and on and their recommendations. So we very strongly um supported throughout the report you will have noticed the recommendations of the rapid review and there is a recommendation in that um around gambling. I I would I would agree um one of the reasons we had there was a focus on on alcohol in this report. So the the omission of a recommendation about that doesn't mean that we wouldn't support the we would absolutely support the rapid review. I was one of the co-chairs of the rapid review recommendations. The the focus on alcohol um was very much because that's what we had been hearing from our stakeholders as one of the things that they wanted us to be amplifying and talking about.
>> Yeah. So it obviously wasn't a deliberate exclusion. It was just something deliberate. >> Okay. Um, so did the minister or or her office have opportunity to provide input, edit or remove content from the 2025 annual report before publication?
>> No, Senator, we provided embargoed copies to a number of relevant agencies. No surprises, but uh nobody um that that was very clearly on a um briefing basis and there was no uh editing or changing or any or any suggestion that there would be.
>> Yep. >> Excellent. Thank you for that. Maybe this year we'll have a bit more of a focus on gambling. Um so just on my final topic from Senator Kassic. Um this is relating to an article that was actually I think in the Sydney Morning Herald, but it just highlight highlighted um the concerns that we had back then, but it's it's still actually very relevant. This was I think was originally raised for the last lot of estimates, which is um why it's coming up now. Um, on the 1st and the 2nd of December last year, the Sydney Morning Herald reported on deeply disturbing cases of technology facilitated facilitated abuse, including AI generated rape and torture imagery targeting women and the weaponization of smart car technology to control, track, and intimidate partners. Given the serious issues raised in that reporting, I just wanted to understand what the visibility the commission has over these emerging forms of harm.
uh completely agree and it is very much senator something we again hear from stakeholders in fact have have been having very regular and um it it is increasing in terms of the issues that people are raising with us in terms of concerns so I would I would concur with and it's a very good question uh we work closely in collaboration with so the e- safety commissioner um and there was a that that piece of work was we did in partnership with them that launch um they are really leading in this space and we we we work to support that work um both in providing them insights that we receive from our stakeholders providing uh receiving briefings from them about the work that they do. So they would very they are very much I think the safety commission is leading
basis then have you been formally briefed on reports detailing AI generated deep fake abuse and the weaponization of smart car technology in the domestic and family. So when that
when that um piece that you're referring to uh was uh published then yes I did receive a briefing from
>> and who was that by
>> e safety commission
>> e safety I thought it would be >> are you seeking any further advice in light of the reporting or from that following on from that briefing
>> we are keeping a really close watching brief on that it is very much part of our advice uh to government which is part of our tasking around strategic advice to government around that it very much needs needs to be picked up um in the second action plan to implement the national plan that this is this is a growing and emerging and and always evolving form of domestic family violence and sexual violence and we need to keep a very close eye on it.
>> So you said the e you've had briefing from the e safety commission and that was early December I'm assuming sort of soon after that. Yes. There's no one else that you sought briefing from from other providers or um police or
>> uh so I have talked with in fact that's who I was talking with the Australian Federal Police Commissioner yesterday. I was trying to remember who it was this week that I'd been talking to and it was we so I talked with with the AFP about it. We are working and talking to them about how we can collectively respond >> Okay. The other the other thing I would add to that senator is we regularly engage with each of the state peak bodies. So the se so the sector peak bodies um across domestic family and sexual violence and receive briefings about what they are hearing and seeing on the ground.
>> Right. Excellent. So in just relating to the e safety commission she they have said that connected car coercive control represents the next seat belt moment for the automotive sector. Has the de has the commission engaged with the e safety commissioner, the department of industry or automotive manufacturers about safety by design standards to prevent the misuse described in the Sydney Morning Herald reporting.
One of the things that we have been advocating very strongly across all government portfolios is is the use of safety by design principles in every policy service um that government develops and and both both retrospectively but also looking forward. you know, thinking about any new because what we know and what we hear all the time is that every new um service offering product, the clever ways that people um think to abuse and cause harm and weaponize those is horrifying. And we all collectively need to get better at how do we preempt that? And our view and the recommendation in our report and what we've talked a lot about is that the best way to do that is to talk to the people who will those services or products will be weaponized against. So people with lived experience need to their perspectives need to be built into policy and services designed from the outset.
>> Yeah. And it makes a lot of sense even from government um requirements when people importing things from overseas vehicles and stuff. So hopefully that will be something that you work closely with the government on improving. Um the Sydney Morning Herald also reported that more than 20,000 frontline workers accessed e safety support service in the past year. A volume reflecting how unprepared services feel in responding to these complex cases. Is the commission concerned about frontline capability to respond to technology facilitated abuse including AI deep fakes and connected car coercive control?
>> I think so. I'm aware and I wouldn't want to speak on behalf of the safety commissioner but I'm aware that part of their strategy was to as that service grows was really to focus on how to upskill the workforce and again one of the things that we recommended in the um in the in our last yearly report was that there is a real need to have a workforce strategy to look at how do we upskill not only the domestic family and sexual violence workforce but all of the adjacent workforces so health education police about >> uh the way that services systems product are are weaponized. Not necessarily to be to become experts but to know as part of their risk assessment what questions to ask, what to look for um because it is going to be ever kind of evolving and changing. So upskilling work forces so that they are aware that those risks exist and where they can then refer people on to. So how can they connect someone that that might raise an issue of something they're worried about or that is happening to them to an appropriate service?
>> So with that all that training and the upskilling is that been something that you've recommended through to the government for you know to provide that additional training or funding um for technology facilitated abuse support service
>> workforce training is very much a is one of the priority recommendations that that that we would make. It's really probably in the top three or four of the recommendations we would make is that upskilling across all adjacent work forces is critical.
>> Yeah. Excellent. And just on the um meetings that you've had previously and you know obviously the e safety the AFP have you actually met with the department of industry or um any of the automotive manufacturers about the um the systems?
>> No Senator I don't I don't think anyone from my team has met with. Again, we would let the the E safety commission lead on that piece of work because they've got deep expertise in that area.
>> Okay. And just a final question, Minister, just in regard to funding for that sort of um the level of training and and upskilling that's going to be required that's been raised by the commissioner. Is that something that you've looked at in especially in preparation for budget this year?
>> Well, these are matters. concept with you. I mean, uh, the majority of the funding we put in Oh, I think I just it taken so long for me to speak. My mic was turned off. Um, that uh most of the funding that we put through goes through to the states and territories and so we have the national plan which guides a lot of the decision making through that. But yes, of course, we uh Commissioner Cronin's work and her team's work is very important for both Minister Pisec and myself as we work through next
steps. Okay. So with the funding that's provided for the national plan would that would there be sufficient funding do you believe in there for this upskilling required that's required?
>> Well again I mean we we work in partnership with the states and territories who work with their sector that delivers a lot of the frontline services. So um you know I mean part of the work that's been done is to make sure that the investment going in is meeting the needs of those local jurisdictions. So, um, you know, it's something that we have under constant review.
>> Okay. We look forward to monitoring that overcoming estimates, but thank you very much for your time. That's my question.
>> Thank you, uh, Senator Ascu. Senator
>> Thank you, Chair. Could I have the Australian Institute of Family Studies, Thank you for attending and good I know it's late. Well, getting late, but uh so I'll be fairly quick and you'll see why in a little while. This is the first opportunity to catch up with you since I think December, wasn't it? Senate estimates for December.
>> Correct. Senator and Katherine Edison, acting director. We didn't get the pleasure of meeting in December, though.
a little bit earlier.
>> Well, now we've had the pleasure. In those estimates, I raised issues around the wording of information around suicide on your website, which appeared to minimize the significance of male suicide. I note shortly afterwards the page was rewarded to remove the inappropriate wording. So, thank you for that. I appreciate that. I raised a report from the Australian Institute of Family Studies and it was not available to be found by your staff. The reason we tracked it down, the reason as it turned out was because it was a joint report that you you prepared for the Victorian Police and only available on their website. That's why. So my apologies for that. I'm going to table chair a page from that report. a page from the summary report summary which includes a link to the full report which was too long to print. We've got 10 copies there. The topic was false sexual assault allegations. The report is titled challenging misconceptions about sexual offending creating an evidence-based resource for police and legal practitioners. I'll leave questions around the report to the next estimates to allow time to have an informed witness present in May. So moving on, just one question really. Can I clarify what figure you use for the rate of false allegations of sexual assault by women against men?
So senator, if I can just clarify in terms of the figures that you're referring to, which publication
>> Well, no, I just want to know what figure you use for the rate of false allegations of sexual assault by women against men. What do you say it is? So
if you're referring to the 2024 report around the myths and misconceptions where we had the figure in there uh of 5% that I think it was um was the one that you're referring to at the time and that figure was based on uh seven studies a meta analysis. Uh there was a range of um of different methods that were employed in that. We put some caveats and hence how we came up with the figure. That's the figure the only figure that I'm aware of that you're referring to.
>> Okay. I'll address that to you in May and we'll circulate papers in advance. >> Thank you, chair, and thank you for attending.
>> Oh, thank you, Senator Roberts. >> Yes. Three minutes. I
Anyone got commission questions? Anyone else got questions for education? Does Karen have them? >> No, that's it. She >> wanted to ask about the annual report, your annual report. Um, your report states that 68% of the 131 measures in the performance management measurement plan currently cannot be measured due to lack of data sources. Can I ask how do you um give consideration to the government's claim of progress towards the national plans goals when twothirds of the data is not informing those things that
>> Uh Senator, thank you for the question. It is very important to be looking at what what it is that we are measuring and where we are where we are able to gather data from uh to to adequately make an assessment about progress that that is that is something that we raised as a matter of concern. Uh we are aware that the department and across government are working to to look to and have articulated in their reporting that that is a matter of priority to identify data sources to measure those things and to collectively look at and it's one of the things we recommend needs to be looked at as part of the second action plan that we have very clear uh baselines in terms of what are the things that we are going to be measuring to be able to ensure that the effort is having the impact that we all collectively want it to have.
>> Right. Um, critical elements of the national plan's implementation architecture, i.e. the evaluation strategy and the information development plan are still listed as under development. Uh, what is the specific timeline for their delivery and why are they not already in place three years into the plan?
>> I think that's yes, the question for the department.
>> Miss um yeah, so Senator Corey McKenzie, the deputy secretary, I'll just call my colleague to the table. Um but just ahead of her um coming uh there are as you as you will have seen and particularly reflected on the department's website and then the AIHW website the reporting and monitoring frameworks are progressively being developed. So the outcomes framework the performance monitoring plan are in place. We're now regularly publishing and updating against those. So they're um kind of ongoing updates not just the major updates. Um, and that includes also the most recent December activities addendum that I know you're aware of in terms of tracking progress against the implementation of the actions under the national plan. So the most recent update of that was in December last year. Um and that included a range of new reports to your point, Senator, to to make sure that um that we are sharing information very broadly with um very broadly about progress and work underway on the national plan, but also progressively building measurement of the impact that that's having um across across the domains. Um there's a range of work underway on developing the evaluation which you've identified. Miss L, do you
>> Thank you, Senator. uh Anna Lutz group manager family safety the governance arrangements that were published at the end of last year also talked to evaluation and monitoring so that's uh outlined there there are a number of different evaluation mechanisms which I've talked about previously in different estimates hearings um and we we actively monitor and evaluate at the I think last time senator I talked about three different levels but certainly in that governance framework we've explained how evaluation of the plan overall comes together. Just in terms of um measurement, there are the six national targets agreed across states and territories. So as you know the national plans or governments
um the commission recommends a national funding mapping framework because there is no current visibility of actual DFSV expenditure across all jurisdictions as as you know the plans don't line up let alone the funding. Um, how much of the $4.7 billion package announced in 2024 has actually reached frontline services?
>> Senator, the um $4.7 billion package announced at the 6th September National Cabinet involved a few different elements. Uh, some of that was the National Access Justice Access Partnership. I always get the name wrong. Apologies. And so I can give you a breakdown on notice about how much of that went to frontline family domestic and sexual violence services, but it was a combination of different elements and some of that sits in attorney generals.
I'm interested in understanding um we know that women experiencing intimate partner family uh partner or family violence um face $50,000 more in lifetime health costs. what work is being done to understand how to respond to to to that level of trauma over that period.
>> Uh thank you. We um are starting to think about what is the second action plan which you'll be aware of Senator and looking at policy levers across different systems really important um including health, education, employment and the um different responses across those systems that we can look at. Um we do have different services embedded in health and other services to help with recovery and states and territories deliver quite a number of different services in that context.
Do you know um your yearly report identified a critical gap for young people aed 15 to 17 who are too old for child protection and too young for adult refues. >> Um how many unaccompanied children in this age group do you understand or can you you probably don't have an exact number but um I've had people ring my office who are young people raising this as an issue about where do we go. um what's what are you what's being done in terms of identifying that cohort that is essentially not um not silent but certainly invisible.
>> Um thank you Senator. Um it's it's an incredibly important question and the um and we're certainly like you very aware of the experience of children and young people who have experienced family violence um and including homelessness for example arising from that violence. um as Miss Lut says um that is a um I think we're also anticipating that's a very significant focus of work um through the second action plan particularly looking at the experience of children and young people. I would just say as well that there are a range of um existing supports um some of them were raised in the conversation in relation to outcome one about um supports income supports available for young people who are unable to live at home for example as well. So I think the um the the um the work is very much about focusing on how we can bring together uh efforts that do exist to better support children and young people and particularly as you say older older adolescents who um who aren't able to live at home for example.
>> Right. So how are we going to get their um them engaged in this discussion so
they're actually being heard at the the state territory level? Yeah, that would be fantastic. Yeah.
>> So, I think that that issue, Senator, around how do we ensure that they are both their their their voices are being heard and their experiences are being uh are taken into consideration in policy and service design is really important and one of the things that we've recommended and we we actually held a roundt at the end of last year. So the last year's ANROSE conference was focused was a had a really strong focus on children and young people's experiences, voices, evidence of practice that's working and as part of the development of that conference they brought together a group of children and young people and we convened a roundt with them and a number and a reference group that we've had established that Minister um Minister Plebec and Assistant Minister Chaney both attended and listened to those children and young people's perspectives. We recommended that a task force an ongoing task force and we will be looking at how we can ensure that that kind of a mechanism happens across this year. Uh and we are very much in conversation with the department about how we can support children young people's voices being central to the development of the second action plan.
>> And senator I might just add to the commissioner's um response there as well. A number of the of the jurisdictions, the states and territories also have existing um mechanisms and um groups and functions that specifically relate to um hearing the voices of people with lived experience including um children and young people. And so um as Miss Lutz was saying um this is obviously shared work with states and territories. And so um as the commissioner was saying as well, drawing on those um inputs will continue to be really important.
Um yeah, I'm happy 10 minutes. >> Y >> Um I'm just wanting to understand um your perspective and sorry uh Commissioner Hunter, I didn't actually see you sitting there when I first came in. Um just want to ask a question about um we've seen we've got the national plan which you've been looking at very closely. We've now seen the Aboriginal Trust Island um standalone action plan. Um I noticed that for in for the rate of uh prevalence of violence in ainal communities and to island communities the um target the ambition is for 50% reduction by 2030 um which in terms of the original island action plan means I mean the lineup there's just no line up with these plans right it's really quite clear. So in terms of the original Honda plan um essentially um it doesn't line up with that because it gives them four years to to get there and that's just not going to happen. I think we can pretty safely say that. How do we actually get some sort of alignment of um the plans, the delivery of the money, the lineup of um uh trans, you know, the lineup of services that help people to transition because they're not going to always want the same level of service um and intervention. I'm just um at a bit of a loss as to how we actually try and get this all um tied together. I don't know who >> who you directing that question to, Senator. >> I don't know because I think you've all got an answer to this, but um >> it just seems like we've got this ambitious target. >> That plan doesn't really line up with that >> original action plan doesn't really talk to that.
>> I'm going to start Senator and I think the commissioner may may add. Um it's it's really important. Um and uh I think uh I think certainly the government has been very clear that we need to um ensure that um we have a very clear focus and target across across both plans. Um uh but there is obviously very significant um work that is that needs to be coherent for um people using services supported through those plans. um and there needs to be coherence and complimentarity about the way those are delivered and and used. Um I think the other I would also add that um the work um of the Commonwealth states and territories under safe and supported both um safe and supported and the Aboriginal and touristra islander um uh plan are are also relevant to um some of the services and the people who need to support to access those supports as well. Um that's um while the time frames so while having distinct reports is really plans is very important um for clarity and to make sure that there is appropriate focus for different groups of people um the work to um progress implementation of those very much needs to be done together. Those are predominantly done through action planning and implementation. Um and certainly I know um uh Minister PLC for um has been very focused on trying to make sure that those that work is very complimentary and connected um and um and that that's a part of the way of working not only within the department and the and the commonwealth but also with states and territories and also through shared decision-m forums as
What I would add, Senator, is that I think I I think your point about the number of plans we have across portfolios and across jurisdictions is a wellmade point. Um, and that and and as Miss McKenzie has said, the importance of align and the opportunity and alignment of those is actually something that I feel uh very optimistic about this year. We have a number of plans that are being currently reviewed. Uh and there is an opport there is a and there is a real will I think um with having had national cabinet make this a national one of the top priorities to bring those plans into alignment to get better outcomes so we can get things to people on the ground. Having said that on the one hand being optimistic on the other hand um it will take a great deal of work to do that. ACT uh I met with the ACT minister yesterday, Minister Paterson, and they are in the process of finalizing a 10-year plan themselves. So, jurisdictions, we we've got lots of moving parts and aligning is is a complex piece of work that um I what I am observing is a great deal of will. Uh we've just got to get aligned and do the
>> You can keep going. Yeah.
>> Okay. Thank you.
>> Actually, um do you want to do that one question and then >> or do you want to bring that back? >> Okay. Thank you. We are going to suspend for the dinner break uh now and we will resume at 7:30.