Senate Community Affairs Legislation Committee, , 4:36:04 to 5:02:09
The department explains the 'Thriving Kids' program, focusing on foundational supports for children and intergovernmental service delivery models.
Topics: Social services, Child safety
Speakers: Luke Mansfield, Hon Anne Ruston, Blair Comley PSM, Hon Jenny McAllister, Pauline Hanson, Amity Durham, Dorinda Cox
>> Oh my gosh. They did well out of this negotiation, they um so um you mentioned the 1.4 four billion going straight through to the states and there was 600 million to be spent a by the department or the fed through federal um mechanisms. Can you just um explain a little bit about what that $600 million is to go towards?
>> I'll ask Mr. Mansfield Mansfield about
>> Uh yes, Senator. So in terms of the overarching uh focus of thriving kids, the minister's talked about four pillars. Mhm. >> Improving awareness of development, better identifying developmental delays, first pillar. Second pillar, support for parents in terms of better information and understanding of those issues. Third pillar, building skills and confidence of parents and families in uh development and how to apply that in the context of supporting their own child. And fourth pillar is access to targeted best practice group and one-on-one supports um by allied health professionals where where it's assessed as needed. Um the the states and territories with their 3.4 billion out of the four will be delivering um the uh focused supports the targeted supports and the vast bulk of capacity building. Um the uh Commonwealth will be focusing in areas where there is uh the most benefit for it to be national and uh we are working through the details with states about the precision of services at the Commonwealth and state level so that they operate together. But in broad terms the kinds of things that we would expect that will sit uh in Commonwealth service delivery are things like uh information and advice that can sit at a national level. um conducting the evaluation that will underpin the program. A focus on uplifting and supporting the key work forces that uh interact with uh uh children and families in relation to development across the system. uh and uh some other some other measures that go to uh information uh uh supporting identification of children uh communications with families and parents and work forces across the country. But the precise arrangements around that are being settled through the process of the bilateral uh negotiations that the secretary has referenced are under underway.
Well, it seems like $600 million is an awful lot of money to be spent on creating awareness and providing information and making sure we've got a workforce. Um, notwithstanding the fact that having a workforce is incredibly important. Um so based on the announcements by the minister and the and and the information the advice that you've given us here today am I correct in saying that the effective responsibility for developing the actual thriving kids program and the delivery of that program um has been handed to the states and territories. And I suppose my question is is based on is there any um mechanism by which you can require the states and territories to deliver a uniform program or can the states and territories just choose to deliver the program as they wish to within the mechanisms that are available >> in their own jurisdictions.
>> Um thanks for the question Senator. I wouldn't describe it as um giving over responsibility for the states for them to do whatever they like. That's not the arrangement. The the national agreement on financial support sets a national model of support uh and sets both the domains or the areas of support which are the pillars that I've described. It sets some principles around uh expected service delivery. We're currently going through the process through bilateral discussions of confirming the specifics of the arrangements that states would deliver and that the commonwealth would deliver and how they interplay with one another. Uh and that um is very constructive discussion um that's going on right now. Um and uh the aggregation of that will will be a national model of of support. There are provisions that will be in agreements.
>> Sorry. So model of support. So the the federal there will be a national model that the states must implement in order to get their share of the money.
>> That that's correct, Senator. Of course, they will be able to have flexibility for local adaptation uh of of implementation noting that each jurisdiction is starting from a different uh base. um you know in WA they've got an existing developmental service for example that they would scale from in um New South Wales they've got various health and other services that they will scale from each jurisdiction will have some level of variation but it will be consistent with the overarching principles for the design uh and those principles have been built from uh the thriving kids advisory group uh work that's been undertaken that's been very instrumental as has all of the input from uh the community over the last two years that's informed these arrangements.
>> So just as a you know hypo not a hypothetical but just um as an example um is it correct that you know potentially services could be offered through a school system in one state and through a different community service sort of mechanism in another state. I mean how everything you're saying is very high level it all sounds you know lots of words. I'm just trying to work out how does it actually get on the
ground. Well, uh, Senator, there'll be a lot more detail that's made available to the community, um, once agreements have been reached as we get closer to one October when services, uh, are provided. Um, but there there will be variation between different jurisdictions. Uh, the principle,
>> what about that example I just gave you?
Well, the principle is uh that um services the the the vast majority of services are to be delivered in um in uh settings where children live, learn and play. That's the principle. Uh there there are multiple settings.
>> That's not my question. My question is in the live, learn, and play. I get that. Would you do it in one setting in one state and a different setting in
another state? There will be different arrangements for how individual jurisdictions connect with each setting. Schools, early childhood education and care, community hubs, uh community health facilities, uh play groups, uh existing um third party provided services. There will be a mix of services. Uh Senator uh however all of them will be expected to connect with those settings. >> Okay. with schools, with ECE, with other community settings.
>> Just to be very clear, each state or territory could choose to deliver its services by a different means. The requirement is only that the services are delivered. Is that correct?
>> That's correct. And they have to uh that has to be agreed by the Commonwealth.
>> Okay, no worries. So I'm interested in terms of the development of these what what measures are in place to ensure that the states and territories actually do adhere to the fundamental principles outlined in the thriving kids agreement.
>> Uh so there are measures in the national agreement that provide for uh governance arrangements that provide for reporting um evaluation activity um measurement of performance in in bilateral agreements. There will be milestones associated with the roll out. Uh and those uh those arrangements provide for accountability for all parties around the delivery including the Commonwealth who's also delivering uh parts of this national model of support.
>> Okay. Um, so you're saying the Commonwealth actually ultimately remains responsible for the outcomes and the service delivery in terms of the at the highest level?
>> No, all governments remain responsible uh for for the system design and the outcomes.
>> So when something goes wrong, who who takes responsibility for that?
>> It was joint responsibility for the delivery of this. That was the commitment that was made by first ministers in December 2023 and that remains the uh the arrangements. It's a it's a shared responsibility.
>> I hope if some more mechanisms have been put in place because we certainly know that the accountability and um for the federal government or sorry the ability federal government to prosecute what the states are doing with the money that goes into the NH is pretty opaque. Um I would hope that you had some stronger transparency measures put into the expenditure of of this funding. Um the other thing I'm sort of interested the prime minister announced in his press release that the dates for the roll out and full implementation of thriving kids have been delayed as the commonwealth had listened to stakeholders including parents, health professionals, disability advocates, educators and states. Um, don't you reckon it might have been a good idea, Minister, that the prime minister actually did that before he made an
>> Senator? We've been through this before. >> this program or this project had been under discussion since 2023. And when uh Minister Butler uh was appointed uh as the cabinet minister, he I think correctly assessed and said publicly that development of this program had He went to the National Press Club, laid out a set of ideas that the Commonwealth was keen to pursue and made the argument for why reform was both necessary and urgent and proposed a set of ambitious timelines. I think that intervention was critical in getting this negotiation moving and we now are in a situation where states and territories have been able to work with us along with the expert advice that we sought from professor overlaid and the many people who made submissions to the uh the committee that was chaired by two wellrespected pediatricians who sit within this parliament. Those things were very important interventions um that allowed uh very important developments that have allowed us to reach agreement and to start to take these next steps. This is a big reform senator. It's a big change. It arises from a review that was undertaken >> uh by professor Bonahadi and Lisa Paul which itself consulted with many people. It's really important that we get on with it. It matters to children. It matters to families and there is a sense of urgency about it. Senator,
>> can the NDIA a outline a typical process for reassessment under NDIS eligibility criteria? because my understanding in this program that um children so in your FNQ document um it says and and the prime minister's press release that all children under eight uh and uh enrolled in the NDIS prior to the 1st of January 2028 with develmental delays and or autism with low to moderate support needs will be subject to reassessment under the eligible eligibility criteria in place prior to January 1, 2028. So I'm interested to understand, you know, what is the typical process in a a reassessment under NDIS? Um, young Australians are likely to be on the 1st of January 2028?
>> Uh, hello. My name is Amity Durham. I'm a deputy uh chief executive uh covering specialized services, children uh and scheme interfaces and that includes our access and eligibility team. Um in terms of your question about our current process for eligibility reassessment um I can work through um how that works at about this will continue to apply um until the new access uh settings commence on the 1st of January 2028.
>> So I'm assuming this is done at a participant level. You your normal reassessment process is all done at a participant level. Um, so how how many people are you anticipating um will require reassessment on the 1st of January 2028 change is coming into place?
>> Well, uh, Senator, the usual reassessment arrangements will apply. So that means the usual triggers for a reassessment um will continue to apply and they occur um in a number of circumstances. Uh so for the children who are on the scheme um ER is a a reassessment is triggered when the ch when a child with developmental delay turns six uh years old. >> Um when a child with global development delay turns seven. >> Mh. Um and uh so those will be uh the usual triggers dependent on the child's age at the time.
>> Okay. So the can I just get a bit of an understanding about how this will work? So as of October 2026 we'll start seeing some change and then by January 2028 it will be fully operational. Is that correct? You're shaking your head Mr.
Comley. Well, Miss Da Rocha may comment, but the whole point is that nothing changes until 1 January 2028 in terms of the criteria applied to people being reassessed. >> Yeah. And furthermore, if you happen to have been in the scheme and then past 1 January 2028, you would be reassessed when that would occur naturally under the current criteria, not what the criteria will be for those who are seeking to enter the scheme from 1 January 2028, okay, >> onwards.
>> So, you're not going to have a great big cohort of people all reassessed on the 20 on the first. That's all I was trying to get to. Sorry. Uh, okay. Um so is it envisaged that at least some of the cohort who are currently receiving NDI supports will be found ineligible for NDI supports um and then transition to thriving kids
>> senator where children today children under the early childhood pathway within the NDIS uh can be reassessed and found that they no longer require require supports and and they exit the NDIS >> uh and access general other services in the community. >> The same will be true >> into the future. >> Uh it's the focus of thriving kids is very much on the children and families that are not being supported today. >> Yeah. around development and also u providing an alternative so that children who may have otherwise continued to go into the scheme >> don't need to go into the scheme because there is a alternative highquality system of support that is meeting their development needs
>> okay so I suppose I'm trying to understand is that under current criteria children would be eligible for the NDIS under the change criteria There's two separate pathways in which they could be directed depending on what their assessment might be. I'm just trying to understand the cohort of children between now and 2028 who currently would be um assessed as eligible for the services through the NDIS that are likely to be found ineligible for the NDIS but eligible for the the thriving kids um because of the change in the criteria and the
>> the development of the criteria doesn't has not changed for anyone before 1 January 28.
>> No, I get that. So on one
>> I think what you're really asking Miss Durham is if we look at what's currently happening, what is the number of kids or the proportion of kids due to the current reassessment process who are in the NDOS and drop out on a regular basis? I think that's what you're asking S. So you know how many per month or how
I'm sort of just trying to understand if there if there will be any children on the 1st of January 2028 who are currently receiving NDIS services who will be found through the reassessment process to to not be eligible for NDIS services but actually be but still be eligible for thriving kids services. Not the ones that you know fabulously are able to just go into mainstream but th those Yeah. So, are there any children on the are you anticipating that there will be children on the 1st of um January 2028 who will move from the NDIS into thriving kids?
>> That is generally not the expectation, Senator. Families may benefit from thriving kids, the advice, the information, the other elements. um but where children have been assessed as no longer needing developmental supports uh because their needs have been met and exiting the scheme.
>> That's my point, Mr. Mansville. It's not about the ones whose needs have been met, which is fantastic, and that's obviously what we want to see happen. What I'm trying to understand is those children that their needs have not necessarily been met, but have been found to not no longer, you know, meet the assessment for the NDIS and are being moving to to thriving kids. Are we envisaging that there are going to be anybody moving from one scheme to the other directly?
>> There there would be some.
>> Okay.
>> And those people would be the ones that the same person if they were reassessed tomorrow would be ineligible for the NDIS if they didn't meet the assessment criteria. at the moment they don't have um the support system like thriving kids to access post one well in fact from one October this year there would start to be a thriving kids option available to those children if they are reassessed outside the NDIS.
>> Okay. Okay. So, I'm just trying to get from what you're talking to trying to understand if nobody's going to be moved from the NDIS to thriving kids. What are we trying to achieve here from an NDIS perspective? I understand that you're trying to have the right supports for children in the right place in terms of assisting them with their developmental issue. I mean, I get that. That's that's great and which is why we've always been very supportive of the concept of thriving kids and states and territories delivering the services within a community setting. But if there are no children, you're saying that these children would have been assessed as not needing the NDIS anymore. What what is the purpose of what we're doing here from a a Commonwealth perspective, not to deal with the children? Well, I
mean the Commonwealth has always got the children's perspective in mind, but the point really is from 1 January 2028 onwards, there would be a cohort of children who may have currently been assessed to be eligible for the NDIS that won't be assessed at that point in time as eligible for the NDIS. Okay? >> Those children with mild to moderate autism, sorry, autism and development delay with mild to moderate support needs. Mhm. >> And at that point they would not go straight into the NDIS because the a lot of the expert advice is that individualized package support is actually not the best setting for them. >> Y >> but there will be a service offering in terms of thriving kids that would deal with the needs of those children at that point in time.
>> So maybe the simple answer is Mr. Mansfield is there have are the eligibility criteria for the 1st of January 2028 have they been designed as yet or is that part of the process going
forward? It's part of the process that will be collaboratively done between the
>> we just get a sense of how much time more time you need. Uh if I can shift the call now to Senator Hanson. She just
for >> Yeah. Thank you. Thank you chair. Um just about the thriving kids. My understanding is it's basically identical to the program for childhood intervention services that are now provided in NDIS. Is that correct?
>> No, Senator, the the intention is really to have a much greater capacity building focus that is really helping families around uh the development of their child. The best practice approach uh for child development is to deliver services where children live, learn and play and is to really support families around that development process. What what has been seen which Minister Butler's talked about uh at some length in his press club speech is the development of really high inensity therapy models for children who actually have quite low to moderate support needs. And so this reform will move away from a pure um therapy based model to one that focuses on sure there might be a little bit of therapy that is evidence-based and needed for the child to achieve milestones um but there's a much greater focus on supporting families in community where they're already interacting with other services and building the capacity of the family and the child through those um existing uh mechanisms.
>> The thriving kids actually looking at doing it in the educational system whereas you actually have a a schools for these kids with autism um that they go there and get the decent help and attention and care that they need rather than putting them in a a classroom of children or where the teachers are not trained to deal with it. You've got failure in the classroom of disruptive children whereas the children really need to have that special care and attention. So are you looking at actually the educational system put them into special classrooms?
>> Uh Senator, I think what you're referring to is more around the broader inclusion measures within school systems. the the primacy of education and the focus of school systems being about education rather than about provision of therapy is something that was actively discussed by the thriving kids advisory group. Uh and there is no intention to place an additional impost on teachers um associated with this reform. What this reform will do is uh identify children earlier, enable them to get support earlier, enable many children who may have some level of delay compared to their peers to receive services that allow them to catch up to their peers so that uh by the time they reach school, there are better developmental outcomes for the child.
>> Doesn't that happen now with NDIS? because I know parents with NDIS so they have the services available to them to do it under NDIS. So if you're going to set up another another this is going to be another department isn't it? So this is going to be billions of dollars to the taxpayer to set up another department that's going to oversee thriving kids.
>> Senator no um in the the model is to build off existing service systems that exist in states and territories today. it uh and the agreement has been that that is the predominant way that these services will be delivered. Scaling existing services, improving those existing services uh and only where needed adding new services to the mix uh that improve developmental outcomes. There will be uh a a focus on uh supporting the workforces that interact with children. That includes supporting ECE educators, early childhood educators and teachers and general practice uh general practitioners and others who are involved in the system so that they can be well equipped to support children. But the focus is uh on good connection with schools. That may be that children who are identified in schools are referred to services that are that are outside the school grounds or outside school hours uh or are at a local um community center where the child can get the support and family that can get the support that they need. So it's not about taking children out of a setting and moving them into another setting.
All right, I'm I'm going to change. I'm going to go back to the