Senate Community Affairs Legislation Committee, , 8:28:12 to 8:42:55
The acting Inspector-General discusses the office's independence, the upcoming statutory review of Royal Commission recommendations, and concerns regarding the Integrated Assessment Tool.
Topics: Integrity, Social services
Speakers: Ms Kate Pope, Senator The Hon Anne Ruston, Mr Blair Comley, Senator Ellie Whiteaker, Senator The Hon Jenny McAllister
Yep, cool. If we could just have the IG?
How long do you think you'll have? We're just gonna do a minister swap, so I'll just let the next Oh, okay.
Do you need to go?
Not now, but once this is finished.
So I'm just interested for your terms of your um appointment, your obviously acting at the moment. Um is that the intention then that your role will be moved to a permanent role? Maybe that's probably a better question to ask the Minister. What's the intention in relation to the permanency of the Inspector General role?
Uh the Department is working through the arrangements for a permanent appointment, and I'll ask one of the officials to provide an update.
Um the Minister Ray described your role as working cooperatively with government. Just interested how you balance that between cooperation and the independence of your role, particularly in relation to the Royal Commission and the Inspector General Aged Care Act.
Yes. Um that's certainly something I've thought my way through after commencing in the in the role. Um I approach to working with the agencies that I oversee, so that includes the Department, ICPA and the Commission, is that we need strong cooperative working relationships so that I can understand what those agencies are doing. Um the concerns that I might have, whether those are mirrored in those organizations, what they're doing about it, whether they're satisfied with the situation, whether there's more that they're doing, uh, and so on. So I I don't believe that that compromises the independence of the role because after gathering information from all sectors, including the over the bodies that are overseen by the office. We make our findings and recommendations based on the gathering of that evidence.
Yeah, sure. Have you or your office received any suggestions from the Minister's office to sort of tone down the timing or content of public statements since you came on board? Will you continue to make public submissions and statements where you disagree with government policy?
Yes, indeed.
Good. Do you stand by the findings of the 25 progress report?
Yes.
Have any of the reviews, reports or pieces of work that were started under your predecessor been paused, rescoped or delayed since the 1st of August?
No.
Okay. So I'm interested to understand how you'll independently verify the government's claims around about progress and particularly in relation to your final reports in terms of the review of the Royal Commission. So how do you go about independently verifying those outcomes?
So this is a major piece of work for the office. Obviously, we um announced the commencement of the review in about the middle of October, runs through till the first of November. It has to be tabled by the first of November next year. We gathered data from a whole range of sources. For example, we'll be running consultation mechanisms. We've called for submissions. We'll accept information from a whole range of sources and be uh carefully weighing up the evidence across nine areas that we've identified as a way of grouping together the recommendations. We'll also be looking at each of the recommendations individually, but we have nine major areas, and that is set out on our website and in the announcement of the of the review. So there's it's the widest possible range of sources. Uh the uh agencies we oversee will be providing uh responses and information to us about the work they have done in relation to uh each of the recommendations and we will be testing that against other evidence that we gather. We do a lot of work with stakeholders, and that's really been the focus of my work so far in the role is um getting to know the the stakeholder environment and working with um the very wide range of stakeholders that have a view around aged care. So it's it's gathering information from every possible source.
Sure. You're not due to report the final report till the end of next year, are you?
It's the first of November, it's first of November.
So is it your intention to um publish interim findings and any recommendations in terms of actions or outcomes that are urgent prior to that?
Not in relation to the statutory review. Um that's a piece of work that's going to take a full year's work to uh compile, but that doesn't prevent the office or myself from making comments or publishing other documents in the meantime on issues that might arise. Uh uh not counting me, there are it's about 20.
Yep. Has there been any recent changes to that?
No.
Um in your opinion, professional opinion. Um do you believe the support at home program is currently operating in the way it was intended?
That's a really big question for me, having been in the role for a short time, uh, Senator. Um I certainly stand by the evidence that we gave to the support at home inquiry and the recommendations we've made there, so it's clear we think there is more to be done. Uh and certainly the feedback we're getting from stakeholders is that it's it's not working for everyone the way that it was intended to do. So I wouldn't really like to say too much more than that um given the limited nature of my tenure so far, but uh but certainly um there are challenges there and work to be done. And we've we'll be focusing on that as part of the review as well.
Yeah, sure. So has your office examined um any of the concerns that have been raised regarding the integrated assessment tool, which has been the subject of much discussion over the last few weeks?
Yes, we keep a close eye on all the uh public uh publicly available information. I myself have had a detailed briefing in uh Melbourne with the staff that use the tool so that I could see it for myself and be taken through it in in some detail. Um and of course I'm aware of the the Ombudsman's report and uh and the intention to review a number of elements of the uh the way it operates, which we support and we look forward to participating in those reviews as well.
Yes. And just finally, um, in relation to residential age care sector, um interestingly we're talking about the sector not having uh the the residential sector not being at capacity, and yet we had predictions that approximately 10,500 beds would need to come online every year for the period of 10 years, including the last two years in order to meet up meet with demand. Um given every the evidence before us so far, do you believe that the current settings and the current state of the sector is has the sufficient capacity to be able to meet the projected demands over the next decade?
Um I think I'd have to say again, Senator, that given the limited time I've been in the role, that's a big question for me to mentor an opinion on. Um so I've I I choose not to reply if that if that's acceptable. Um that will be something that we'll be looking at as part of the review and um and considering the evidence over a longer period than I have been in the role.
Okay, well I think I can probably say I've safely put you on notice for the questions I'm going to ask you next time, but I'll let you have a few more questions.
If I'm still in the job, I'll be happy to answer that. Thank you, Senator.
Okay, thank you. Thanks, Chair.
Senator Rason asked me about um the uh approach to the permanent appointment and I undertook to get it more information and the advice I have is that the arrangements for a substantive appointment of the Inspector General are progressing uh in accordance with the Inspector General of Aged Care Act.
That would be excellent. Please go ahead.
So the first one uh is um Mr. Pugh when asked the number of assessment referrals on hand at 30 September 2026. The number given earlier was 71,705. The correct number which was released in yesterday's report, this is not a bombshell, believe me. 71,724.
So I do realize that is 19 extra.
But uh, then 19 people, aren't they? And we should stop using statistics and start talking about people and then 19 people.
They are 19 people, and I wouldn't like you to go away, Senator, and then look at the report from yesterday and say what's happened, why we've got a different number. So that's the consistent figure. Um there was a second thing in the discussion we had about the care minutes issue. I I made a comment that the supplement arrangements moved above the old annex price. That that's actually incorrect. The full annex price was there. Um the way the supplement works though is that the amount that is you described as a penalty but not getting the full supplement is um less than the cost of providing the care minute, so it's a it's a partial um incentive uh for those people. That's right. I think just to avoid any um apparent disparity in in figures on the record, we have cost that a range, the 11 billion dollars is at the lower end of that range, and they do go up to 16 billion. We'll come back to your notice with what the difference between that range is and the assumptions that go into it.
Thank you very much to all of the officials and to you, Secretary, for uh joining us today. And I know we've kept you a little bit later than scheduled, so we do appreciate your time and thank you to Minister McAllister, who I believe is leaving for a little bit and will rejoin us again later. Uh I will briefly uh so we will I'll just confirm we have finished outcome three, and so officers related to outcome three as well as the aged care quality and safety commission, independent health and age care pricing authority and Inspector General of Age Care are released. We will have a short uh suspension while we wait for Assistant Minister Green to find her seat and for the officials to swap over. We'll recommence.