Senate Community Affairs Legislation Committee, , 8:21:20 to 8:34:07
Senator Thorpe questions the division of ministerial responsibility for child protection systems and recent visits to Western Australia.
Topics: Child safety, First Nations
Speakers: Senator Lidia Thorpe, Hon Katy Gallagher, Corri McKenzie, Michael Lye, Ellie Whiteaker
Senator Thorpe has joined us online and I believe does have some questions for you have questions for cross portfolio matches, Senator Thorpe.
Yes, I do, thanks, Chair.
Okay, well, if you're happy, Senator Gainby, I might pass the call to Senator Thorpe for 15 minutes and then come back to you if you've got more. Okay, excellent. Over to you, Senator Thorpe. You've got 15 minutes.
Thank you, Chair. And thanks for uh appearing today. Um I just want to go to ministerial responsibility. Safe and safe and supported, which is the national framework for protection of Australia's children, sits with your department and is the responsibility of the Minister for Social Services with State and Territory Community Services Ministers. Is that correct?
That's correct.
Thank you. So in terms of the Commonwealth's role, Minister Plibersek is ultimately the responsible minister for this framework and the department's work on this. Is that correct?
That's correct.
Thank you. So the National Commission for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Children and Young People Act is also officially administered by DSS? This is what the Federal Register of Legislation says. Is that correct?
Correct.
Okay, so we've established DSS and Minister Plibersek have a significant role and responsibility in this space. It's your job. So recently the Minister for Indigenous Australians visited the Pilbora in response to issues with child protection there. It was reported that she was accompanied by officials from the National Indigenous Australians Agency. Did Minister Plibosec attend that visit?
Senator Corey McKenzie, Deputy Secretary of the Department. No, she didn't attend that visit.
Did anyone from DSS attend that meeting?
So Senator the Senator McCarthy's visit to Western Australia was not attended by representatives of DSS. You're probably aware the Commissioner has also been in Western Australia and I think is actually in Western Australia now.
Thank you. So did NIA or Minister McCarthy provide a briefing to DSS about that visit?
I'm not specifically aware, Senator, I might need to take that on notice.
I know that Senator Thorpe, it's Katie here. I know that Minister McCarthy works with Minister Plibersek and in fact the cross ministerial working group on First Nations has met since those meetings as well, of which this was an issue that was discussed at that meeting.
Thank you. So could I ask that those briefing notes be tabled?
We'll see what we can provide you, Senator Thorpe in in consultation with both of those officers.
Yeah, I'd like to see the um how the brief was given to the actual minister who's responsible for doing the work rather than the Indigenous Australians Minister. So I'd like that brief, please. Did DSS brief or meet the NIA? Sorry, in a recent letter I received to my office, it was indicated that Minister Plibersek recently visited WA. On what date was this?
That's correct, Senator. I'm not sure if the date oh, I can take that on notice.
Thank you. Could you tell me what the uh primary purpose of that visit was?
Uh again, Senator, I'd need to take that on notice. Did she visit? Sorry, Senator, I should just say we we um as is as is um part of the ordinary course of business provide uh a range of different uh information to support a minister in visiting and and it's it's fairly usual she would do a range of different events and activities on a on a visit to a jurisdiction, as I'm sure you're very familiar with.
Thank you. Did she visit Port Headland in relation to child protection?
Uh not that I'm aware, but Senator, I will take I don't have details of the Minister's travel itinerary with me at the table or her visits, so I'm happy to take that on notice.
Thank you. Has Minister Plibosec spoken publicly to the or to the media about issues that have arisen in Port Headland or issued any statements in relation to this?
Um Minister Plibosec is um speaks very regularly to the media. Um her um ministerial um transcripts, for example, and press releases, etcetera, are available on the DSS website. Um certainly she has um certainly she's you know so obviously they're available to you, Senator. Um she has um I I think I I think been uh asked about this on a number of occasions, but I don't have those details to hand.
Thank you all. Uh my team have looked for uh any reference to what's happened at Port Headlin from your minister, and we've found zip zero, nothing. So if you can find something better than my media team, then well please table that's okay.
I mean um I work closely with Minister Plibersek and I know that she speaks constantly about um her role in um ending violence against women and children and the programs that she is responsible for. I'll see if there's anything further I can add, but I don't think there's any question about the responsibility she takes or how hard she works in this space or how she's I think I get
pardon, Minister. I'm not questioning that. I'm not I'm not uh questioning what her commitment is. I'm asking a simple question when she visited WA after the horrific story, the failure of the system, and only the Minister for Indigenous Australians flies over there. I want to know if if the Minister actually responsible for this situation visited well this sorry, sorry, I'm still speaking. I want to know if she visited this very community that she has ministerial power to fix. I think that's very relevant. Um given she went to WA, did she go to this community? So please uh if you could answer that.
I believe Senator Thorpe that the officials at the table have taken that on notice, given they don't have those details in the case.
And I would I would just say an ones. Okay, great. I'm not trying to avoid uh anything here, but the child protection system is the responsibility of the WA government. Yes, we have uh some responsibilities around programs under DSS, but you but when you said for the system she has responsibility for under law, the child protection system is a matter for the states and territories.
Um we know that very well, don't we? Just like shackling women while they're giving birth. Anyway, I'm not here for those questions. Um Minister, do you think then in what you've said, do you think it's fair that the Minister for Indigenous Australians is having to face scrutiny and carry the burden of this? When it largely sits outside her department and she does not have the actual levers or power that Minister Plebisec does. So if we want to talk about cultural load being dumped on an indigenous cabinet member, then this is it. Why isn't Minister Plebisek taking this issue up? Why is it being handballed?
Well it's not being handballed, and I and I was with Minister McCarthy in the Northern Territory when she was answering questions around this and the fact that there was numerous calls for her to attend Port Headland and go and visit. I stood ne I was standing next to her at a press conference. And it wasn't only those questions, it was questions I think running in major media outlets. And I can tell you, Senator Thorpe, that there are about 10 to 12 ministers that work closely with Minister McCarthy on every part of her portfolio. We do not see First Nations policy as only a matter for Minister McCarthy. And in fact, she convenes the ministerial round table to hold other ministers accountable for the areas of their own portfolio that relate to closing the gap. So she is the leader of that work. She leads it. We all attend the meetings that she convenes. So I completely reject.
Right.
Well, I just completely reject the assertion that you've just made. We work with Minister McCarthy across the board and in it in relation to closing the gap. She leads the cross-government work on that, but we are all accountable to her.
And she's not given the power, and you know it, Minister. No, no, no. And if you have, why isn't it? Why isn't the Minister responsible for child protection in this country, which comes under her portfolio? Why isn't she standing with the Minister for Indigenous Australians when these crises happen? Why isn't she standing with her? She said nothing about what happened in the Pilbora. She said nothing. Why hasn't she come out? Why is it always the Minister for Indigenous Australians?
Senator the under Safe and Supported the Commonwealth's roles don't extend to the statutory child protection system, which is the sit the system that is alleged to have failed in these cases. She has shown leadership around the Northern Territory Government's changes to the Aboriginal Child Placement Principle. She does that with her colleagues, but she doesn't have responsibility for the legislation which the Northern Territory Government has changed. So yes, it is true that child protection protection is a focus within safe and supported, and Minister Plibosec is responsible for that area of policy, but it doesn't mean that she has a direct lever in relation to child protection systems. And so her role is one of trying to exercise Commonwealth leadership to influence state governments to do child protection well. And the Northern Territory example which you can see the public communicators.
But I I got the message loud and clear. Thank you.