Senate Community Affairs Legislation Committee, , 10:19:15 to 10:27:19
Officials explain the review process for international welfare agreements, residency totalisation for the age pension, and the eligibility criteria for Australians living in treaty countries.
Topics: Diplomatic events, Government spending
Speakers: Matt Flavel, Chris Gatenby, Hon Anne Ruston, Unknown Speaker, Michael Lye, Ellie Whiteaker
Senator Ruston, I think you can also ask some questions on income management.
Uh outcome two, Senator.
Outcome two. Right.
They're happy to go to outcome two.
No, no, I just think we've got more. So um do you want to do international?
International agreements?
Is that in outcome one?
International agreements for working one.
And also what about portability of payments? Is that one? Yeah, okay.
Okay. Do you want to go first, Senator Gain?
I will, thanks. Um, previous estimates there's been discussion about international agreements in place with other countries for welfare payments. Um I've just got some follow up questions. Um, how often are the agreements reviewed?
Senator, there isn't a sort of specified program of reviews. There may be circumstances in which countries approach Australia to look at revising elements of agreements, but that you know that occurs on an ad hoc basis.
So it's ad hoc, there's no, they're not signed sort of once it's signed, it's just done, or some remote.
There isn't a sort of a statue review period or some sort of regular program of reviewing them. It typically will be and you know, bearing in mind Australia uses a model agreement. So that's kind of terms and conditions or the parameters are largely set in advance. Um countries may seek to other countries may seek to alter those once they're in place, but but to be honest, um that does appear to be pretty um in pretty limited circumstances.
Okay. Um and you've previously provided uh payments covered under each agreement. Um how many people are receiving each payment type under each of the agreements?
I I think we've provided that on notice, Senator.
You have?
Yes. Yep.
Do you know which quant that was that?
Um I should be able to find it. we provided some in quant 718, which was about total numbers. Um I think there was also a separate one on um by country as well. I might come back to you if that's okay.
Yeah, that'd be fine. Um just so I'm getting this right, um, generally to receive Australian welfare payment, you have to meet the residency requirements, um, which for a payment such as the age of pension is 10 years. With these international agreements, is a person able to combine their residency periods across jurisdictions to meet that 10 years?
Yes. Indeed, that's that's the primary purpose of these agreements is to ensure that people can totalise.
Um do you have any of the data on the splits that people may have over to meet that requirement?
Yeah, I'm not sure what you mean by split.
So, like um, for example, someone had X number of the amount of people that applied for age pension under the agreement would say Switzerland for five years or Australia was for five years?
I I look I'm happy to ask Service Australia, I'm just not sure how granular that information will be. I I found the relevant um question on notice that was 734. Okay, and it broke down by country the number of age pension recipients covered by an international social security agreement?
Thank you for that. Umce a person reaches the 10-year requirement, do they move off the international agreement list onto just Australian residency requirements or do they continue to be included in the data for international agreements?
I think they continue to like that is the mechanism by which they've qualified. So I think those numbers represent the people who once they've met qualification, essentially that that's the mechanism they've used, so it continues to be reported as such.
Okay. And when a person applies under these arrangements, do they still need to meet the other residency requirements? So being just a citizen, permanent visa holder, etc.
Uh well that that will depend on what the agreement says. The the two main components of an international social security agreement are the ability to totalise and also currently you need to be in Australia in order to apply for a payment? Yeah, and then let you have to physically be in Australia. That requirement can also be waived by virtue of an international social security agreement.
Yeah, right. So just in the scenario that in a case where someone applies for and consequently receives a payment, so the age pension from Australia, um, with the portability arrangements for that payment, um, could they then relocate back overseas and continue to receive the Australian age pension payment?
Some could, but I I'm not going to give a kind of blanket, but there are, as you know, sort of portability arrangements that apply to different payments.
Is that something you might be able to give me on notice by payment type?
Uh yes, again, we did answer quite a bit of um quite a few questions around this topic at the last estimate. So I'll check and obviously can refer to a previous answer, but if not, happy to take that on notice.
Okay. And with the 10-year combined residency period, do people or is the 10-year, you know, is it a combined period, or do people have to have worked or paid taxes during their time in either country?
Well, so this will depend on the agreement, but it is there to ensure that people are not disadvantaged where they might um have established um qualification um criteria in both countries, but not enough to meet the threshold, say in Australia. So it's there specifically to allow people to totalise their um their working life.
Okay, and this might be another case of depending on the agreement, but in terms of other eligibility criteria like income and asset tests, for example. Does a person need to meet just the tests of the country they are applying in or both?
Uh so what generally will occur is that somebody then is getting an Australian pension to the extent they're getting an Australian pension, then they're obviously subject to all of the other requirements around receiving that pension, which includes relevant means tests and anything else that um is a fundamental requirement of being eligible for the payment.
And forgive me if this is in the quantum 734, but um the mantra figure for how much is paid in the various payments under international agreements. Is that something you can provide broken down by payment type or sorry, with each agreement, every country?
Yeah, I'm happy to look at it by agreement, and that's probably the best I think we could um we could offer.
What's that, sir?
That's the best we could offer would be by agreement, not by payment type.
Okay, by agreement would be great, thank you. Um and there's been a couple of or some new agreements with Uruguay, Bosnia, Lithuania to name a few, Sweden, I think. Um what modelling do you have on the number of people you expect to be eligible for payments under these arrangements?
Uh so when when those agreements are put forward, one of the considerations is the potential beneficiaries in both countries, um, and that is then used to then um come up with uh an expected cost or benefit from those agreements, generally speaking, when governments make a decision to enter into these, there's a budget measure, and that budget measure in budget paper two will normally specify the um associated financial implications, which will be a direct function of how many people are expected to benefit.
But do you have any actual modelling on for each for those?
Well, it's not so much modelling, it's just a statement of fact, but if there's X number of people who could benefit from it, then um the costing will take that that figure and um uh extrapolate it out to get the cost to the Australian budget of entering into that agreement.
Thanks, and um just to finish that up. What about Australian citizens who move to these countries? What is the counter benefit for Australians?
Well, it's the general one that they're not penalised by virtue of the fact that they've um moved countries and if the international agreement's in place, it can mean that they can qualify for a pension in another country potentially.
Thanks, Mr. Fuller.