Senate Community Affairs Legislation Committee, , 9:52:00 to 10:05:29
Review of mortality rates among income support recipients and current figures for outstanding child support debt and collection methods.
Topics: Social services, Health
Speakers: Matt Flavel, Hon Katy Gallagher, Chris Gatenby, Senator Penny Allman-Payne, Michael Lye, Ben Peoples, Ellie Whiteaker, Hon Anne Ruston
Um what analysis, if any, has the Department of Social Services done in relation to the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare data on mortality and the correlation with people on in receipt of income support.
Uh I'm not take on notice what analysis, but I'm certainly aware of that report, and that of course is a somewhat semi-regular report that the Institute of Health and Welfare publishes.
Is this department aware that mortality among people receiving unemployment payments has increased in the 11 years to 2022?
Uh yes, yeah, we're we are aware of the main conclusions of that AIHW report.
Okay, that being the case, what is DSS doing in response to that?
Well, just referred to earlier um evidence that Mr Lye gave about giving regular advice to to the government of the day about the adequacy of payments more generally. Um I mean I do note, of course, that that report does not suggest that there's a causality itself, it's just simply making an observation about mortality rates for people on income support relative to people who are.
I know that. I will note, however, I've listened to a lot of answers today from departments talking about correlations between this and that. Um and I certainly think there's lots of evidence out there to say that one of the biggest factors that impets impacts people's health and well-being is poverty. Um, and I think we could all agree that if you're living on 400 a week, you're in poverty and it's impacting your health.
Well, I think I think you can think of this in terms of income support payments, but you you also have to acknowledge there's broader mechanisms that governments use to try and reduce economic exclusion. If you think about the broad extension of the NDIS, um reductions in how much people pay out of pockets for medicines, other forms of assistance, they're all designed to go to alleviation of costs that some people on low incomes would otherwise have to face. So I think it you know it's always dangerous just to look at rates of income support as being the only indicator of economic inclusion or exclusion?
Okay, I think we're straying into government talking points, Mr. Flaville, but I'll move on to my last question because I'm aware I'll need to tie up my block. Um is DSS looking into why the suicide rate among people receiving unemployment pavement payments is five times that of the broader population. Are you doing any work or analysis around that?
Senator, we are certainly doing some work to look at non-vocational barriers that people have to work, so better understanding our job seeker population and the fact that in order for them to be able to realize the opportunities that other people have, which which comes from having a living wage, um, that we need to pay serious attention to their those non-vocational barriers, which in short means their mental health needs, their other their other needs, and so um we're looking seriously at that.
Does DSS see keeping people out of poverty as a priority?
Uh Senator one of our um our priority impact areas is getting people into work, and so we definitely see that alleviation of poverty comes from giving people the opportunity that that many of the rest of us enjoy, which is access to it, um paid employment.
Uh a final question to the minister, noting that there's a lot of emphasis on from the government of getting people into work as the way to alleviate poverty. Um, what does the government say when we have an economic system that's based on, as the RBA says, around 4% of people being out of the workforce, people on disability support pension who are assessed as not being able to work, and some of them won't be able to work, notwithstanding Mr. Lye's comments about aspiration. Um what does the government say in relation to the idea that the reason it seems to be the justification for for it not being a problem that payments are so low is that people you're trying to move people into work when we have a system that says some people either cannot or will not be able to work while we need to maintain 4% unemployment.
Well, I think the government tries to come at this from a number of different ways, Senator Orman Payne. Um, you know, and if you look back, and I think you and I have had this exchange in the parliament, I accept that you you don't think it's enough. Uh but the age pension has increased by more than six and a half thousand dollars a year since we came to government job seeker by more than four thousand seven hundred rent assistance, as you know, had not moved uh for decades. We've provided two additional increases to that. Um we do there's a whole range of other areas which intersect with people on payments. We do what we can to provide support, but yes, we don't we don't uh step away from the fact that we would uh like to ensure that there is an incentive to work that's built into our social security system. But even if you look at you know our cheaper medicines, we've for people on concession cards, we have frozen the medicine costs at $7.70 for the next few years. That that you know you can't ignore some of the inter intersections between payments and other policy decisions uh the government has made. And we look at this, we've got the economic advisory committee that provides advice to us. Um I think I got its name wrong, economic inclusion advisory committee that provides advice to us, and just as the Prime Minister said, we look at this at every budget about you know where there's room to make adjustments if possible.
Thank you. I will pass the call to Senator Gatenby.
Thanks, Chair. Um it was established at last Senate estimates that the outstanding child support debt has increased to two billion dollars. Is there a current um figure?
No, that the well, the most recent figure we have was as at 30 June, which was 2.02 billion dollars from 30 June. Yeah. Uh well I can just quickly go through the past couple of years. So the previous year it was 1.92 billion year before that 1.83, year before that, so that's 2223 was 1.74 million, uh 1.74 billion dollars.
Would it be possible to get those years on notice the ones that you haven't provide?
Yes, if you make the 10 years.
Um debt collection options were discussed at the last hearing uh and you provided responses to the COIN 702 and 712, um, where there are a number of options available. I be keen to understand for each of those options, uh those methods over the last five years, how many were in place for deductions from salary or employer withholding deductions
Yeah, we're happy to take on notice the breakdown, we won't have that information to hand.
And uh if I've missed any collection methods, feel free to include those, it'll be great. Accounts of persons to cease estate, superannuation companies, trustees. What avenues are there?
So employer withholding arrangements deduct child support amounts directly from an employer's salary or wages and provide those amounts to Services Australia, which then distributes them to the other parent for the benefit of the child.
And are there thresholds? Like what are the current thresholds for when that avenue is pursued?
We might need to take on notice that and work with Services Australia to get their operational rules. There's a range of those and provide that on notice so we're giving you the complete picture of that.
That'd be great, thanks. At the last hearing regarding electorate data of the Quan 436, the answer provided was the data isn't collected at an electorate level. When did that stop occurring? And we can find some historical data on the Services Australia website.
On child support?
Yes.
I'm not aware that must have been some time ago, I think.
Is it something we can get on a specific data request or I don't know that it's cut that way, but um and it would be Services Australia that that question should be referred Because they would be, I presume, or the child support agency.
Yeah.
Um who would hold that information, it wouldn't be.
So Services Australia.
Well I imagine yes, or the Child Support Agency.
I think Senator Social Security payments we uh have been published by Commonwealth Electric Electoral Direct Directorate for a long period. I'm not aware in recent times of child support information having been published on electorate basis. I suspect that would be quite difficult because of course you'll always have two individuals within you know a transaction. Um happy to look at that, but I think that response that Quan was reflecting the fact as it says Service Australia does not collect child support data at the electorate level.
And it's it's different from a payment in the sense that we're essentially when it comes to us, it's a facilitating a payment from one to another. It's not a government payment. You know, a tax pay payment.
Just taking a step back to the Ganeshee notices. Um can I just see if the bank accounts um persons deceased to state superannuation companies and trustees, whether they can be gunged?
Uh not to my knowledge, but we'll check and can provide them on the apparently child support data stopped being published in 2010 when the child support agency was folded into DHS at electorate level data anyway. So it's been some time.
Okay. Um as at 31 March 2026, there are about uh well, it was 255,295 cases with a child support debt. Do you have an updated figure? Of the number of cases with a debt?
No, I will take that on notice in terms of an update to that figure, sorry, Senator.
And with that, um there are different numbers for cases versus uh parents. How many parents are owed a debt, or is that something you could include on that?
Lye just reminded me at 25 September, um, there were 224,05 um parents with a debt, paying parents with a debt.
Okay.
That's the most up-to-date figure we have.
And do you know what the current average debt value is?
$8,999?
Sorry, I didn't quite hear that.
$8,999.
And obviously there's a big variance in the in the there's some very, very high debts as well.
I think I saw one was two and a half million dollars or something.
Mr Lye, what about the highest debt value?
Sounding good for that one number, but I'll ask you.
We've provided uh a lot of information as you know on notice um with data broken down by individual debts, individual debts by state. I we don't have more up-to-date data than that, but that'll give you a pretty good indication of if what you're interested in is kind of a spread of those debts.
Yeah, I'm keen to get a breakdown of the data by state and territory.
Um, provided that. I think I've signed off quons on that, so it must be digital.
Does that have both the payer and payee data? Um, average debt value and highest debt value.
Yeah, yes.
Um, what about the number of DPOs in place by state and territory? Do you have that?
Again. In um SQ 26435, um, there is a table there that's got the number of prohibition orders by broken down by state and territory.
And so those those figures you've given us to March. Do you have anything just do you have it till September that you can provide?
Well, if you if you'd like us to take on notice, then we can provide uh an update.
Yeah, and we provide updates, uh updated data in um the inquiry um um I think it was one one zero um uh from a couple of weeks ago.
110. Okay.
So Senate committee you were at in relation to the child legislation currently in the parliament.