Senate Environment and Communications Legislation Committee, , 7:32:52 to 7:59:01
Officials provide updates on packaging reform, solar panel recycling pilots, and the status of the global plastics treaty.
Topics: Manufacturing, Procurement, Renewable energy
Speakers: Peter Whish-Wilson, James Tregurtha, Hon Murray Watt, Cameron Hutchison, Cathryn Geiger, Dean Knudson, Varun Ghosh
>> Thank you to the witnesses in the room and my colleague colleagues at the table, we'll now make a start. Um, we're going to outcome 2.3. But before we commence questioning on outcome 2.3, um, I'm in a position now to release the threatened species scientific committee officials. Um, so you go with the the committee's thanks and I appreciate my colleagues assistance in that regard. Um, Senator Wish Wilson.
>> Thank you, Chair. Um, first question. Kirk get an update on uh the RAW act review when that's going to
>> Senator James, head of division circular economy. Um so that review Senator is is in the process of being finalized now. I know um originally the department had expected to finalize it um late last year. Um however the department decided given there were a number of um pertinent issues to the review that arose last year most specifically the um development of the PC's report on the circular economy but also as you're aware um there were a few issues raised with the department um around the export of um soft plastic um which go directly to the contents of the um ROAR act um and so given that the department did extend the time somewhat We're in the process of finalizing it now and expect to be providing that to the minister and the government shortly.
>> Okay. [snorts] And will that review provide um I'm just think looking at a question on notice that I g put to you in December last year around whether the roar act would be suitable for a new extended producer responsibility scheme for plastics. And you said the government is uh progressing work to inform government consideration of options for reform of packaging regulations including a preferred legislative model. So will that recom will that review be making a recommendation around a preferred
legislative model? Uh so senator certainly we would in providing advice to the minister and government provide the department's recommendation about what the preferred optional model would be and it's certainly the case that as part of our development of options we are including consideration of extended producer responsibility um treatment and how that might best be given effect if that was to be the option pursued.
>> Okay. So um minister have you got any comments about this? of
>> No, I mean we've I'm I'm certainly [clears throat] from time to time am briefed by the department about their progress on this. Um uh you've heard from Mr. Darth about where the review is up to. So once that is um provided to me, we'll obviously consider it. But I'm I'm certainly aware of the very strong desire from a range of stakeholders in this space to see change. Uh I've I've done a couple of roundts myself with um representatives from the packaging sector in particular. Um my office is in regular dialogue with them. We're certainly conscious that people would like to see change.
>> Okay. Um, Minister, have you read a recent analysis from K recycling industry representatives and peak bodies which demonstrates that if a mandatory packaging product regulations are not introduced in the first 6 months of this year 2026 that Australian recycling business will likely reach a point of financial no return causing business closures and reducing our recycling cap capacity. Have they expressed that to
the report you're referring to is the one that was released by members of the industry in some point in January from memory. Um and I'm certainly that aware that that is their view.
>> Yeah. It was called securing Australia's plastic recycling future and it was ACOR.
>> Yeah.
>> Um AOR and APCO. >> Are you are you concerned by what they've told you? I mean your government's in on the latest start has invested uh I'll give you the exact number that you gave me recently in the recycling modernization fund. You've invested 110.3 million in uh upgrading and new new capacity and recycling and you've got another 109.1 committed. That's that's a good investment, >> but what [clears throat] what's the point of that if uh if there's no demand for recycled? >> No, I I am concerned about that in this
>> I'm concerned about that. Um uh as I say, I've met with representatives of the industry to hear about their concerns. Um and that's why we've got this work underway.
what in in response to another set of questions that I put to the department around the national waste policy action I wanted to I got asked for an update on the various uh components of that plan and um target four was around um government mandatory uh target four relates to government procurement which obviously has been a key a key ask for a number of years now by the recycling sector. Um in the response that I got from the department it said um significantly increasing the use of recycled content by governments in industry uh is on track. Currently four governments have whole of government sustainable procurement policies in place. All other governments have taken steps towards sustainable procurement. Um the industry tell me that basically governments aren't procuring anything from the sector. Do you how do you reconcile that with feedback this feedback from the second that they need markets for recycled product otherwise this is not going to
work? Uh, Senator, certainly from the Commonwealth's perspective, um, our information, as you'd be aware, we have introduced a government procurement policy. Um, and it is it's our my information is that we're already seeing results from that um, >> from the the implementation of that policy certainly at a Commonwealth level and colleague my colleague,
>> can you give me some examples of that? Okay. So, I've been asking questions to the infrastructure department for years when they're going to put stuff in road base and building materials and a whole bunch of different stuff, but I haven't received any information at all on this.
>> Uh, Senator Katherine Geger, [clears throat] branch head, circular economy strategy. Uh, what I can tell you is that um the this procurement policy has rolled out in two phases. So the first phase um uh only applied to construction services uh and the second phase is furniture, fittings, equipment, ICT, goods and textiles. So to date uh the policy the Commonwealth policy has been applied to 16 construction services contracts uh representing a combi combined value of 956 million.
So could you say that can you put a dollar like a dollar value on what's been >> what's been procured by government.
>> So the the policy has been applied to 16 construction services contracts
>> right
>> representing a combined value of 956 million
>> 966 million >> over just this financial year or >> since the policy was implemented.
>> That's right. and and Senator as um Miss Guyer said that's in relation to the first phase. The second phase is now in place which is around furniture and fittings for fitouts for various um Commonwealth agencies and it's a connected to the Commonwealth procurement framework. So we would expect to see that start to come online and flow through the Commonwealth purchasing as well um which should then make a difference in terms of the procurement of goods that have recycled
estimate as to what the Commonwealth might might procure?
>> We we don't have a an estimate, Senator, but I would say that there are some very big procurers in the Commonwealth. I'm thinking, of course, of the Department of Defense, for example, um but certainly um as a purchaser and a procure procurer of those goods. The Commonwealth has quite a large footprint.
>> And have you been discussing that with have you been in discussions or negotiations with the recycling industry? I mean, how far has this got to you got a point where you're talking to them about innovation and R&D and the kind of things you need or recycle just basic recycle here that then gets value added.
>> So you're right s there's two aspects to that. The first is that the policy is around procuring of goods with recycled content embedded within them. So that's more the goods than the the the source of the recycler which I think is where your question is going if I've understood you correctly. But the department is regularing regularly in contact with the recycling industry and certainly the report you referenced earlier in relation to um plastic recycling. In addition to the minister, the department has also engaged with both APCO and ACOR in relation to that report and we continue to do that as we develop up those options for for reform that I touched on earlier.
>> Okay. Um perhaps this is a question for you M minister. Um I'm just just after like a a kind of really basic your your understanding as to what what's been the barriers to to progress or or action on getting um packaging reform under under your government. It's you know obviously coming up to four years now. Um I over the many years that I've been pushing for this I'd say some of the barriers have been uh that the packaging industry hasn't been on board and APCO has either been agnostic or hostile to to regulations. Um I think under the previous government they were allergic to mandatory uh mandatory regulations and settled on voluntary regulations which have failed. The explanation I got from you previously is you're focused on the EPBC laws and getting that done. Uh which I accept. Um but that they're largely through now. I know the regs are coming. So what what is the pro what is the the barrier to progress here getting this done?
>> I think it probably is is all of those things. Um I mean we under my predecessor Minister Pubbease we obviously made some far more ambitious commitments in the circular economy space than what we'd seen from any government before and work began to start on what would be needed to deliver on those. Um in the time that I've been in the role um I've made no secret of the fact that passing those EPBC laws was my overriding priority. But in the meantime, the department has been busily working behind the scenes, working with stakeholders, working with other departments on the kind of reforms that might be needed. So, um, just because we haven't been out there talking or just because I haven't been out there talking about it a lot doesn't mean that work hasn't been happening behind the scenes. we we I don't know if you were here earlier when we had the discussion about cultural heritage laws but it's been a similar approach there as well is that work has been happening behind the scenes while I personally have been focused you know on on another matter so we would certainly be hoping that over the course of this year we can make some progress on these issues um I've already begun talking with the department about what might be possible um even as an interim sort of step um while we work on broader reforms so you know I would hope that over the next little while we'll have a bit more to say about that.
>> Senator, I'd also note that um earlier this month, the government announced the solar panel recycling pilots.
>> I've got some questions on that.
>> Sure. And I'm happy to answer them, but I guess that's a that's a demonstration that there are things happening as the
>> That's not a mandatory scheme though, is
>> Sorry.
>> Is it a mandatory scheme?
>> No, Senator. It's a it's a pilot that's that's aimed to improve the information [clears throat] that we have available. more at length. But I guess the point I was trying to make is that the department continues to do work and to ad um in the topic. And the other point I'd make is that it's as we've learned through our discussions with industry and stakeholders, it is quite a difficult like recycling and the viability of recycling in this country. You need to have a very it's a very complex situation. It interacts with both feed stock markets but also demand markets and internationally as well as domestic. So we
>> understand all these things missing but we've been talking you these issues have been raised now for 10 years >> since I've been here and we're still now closer to well hopefully we are closer bas based on what you've said today but
>> I would argue the officials can't say this but I would argue that there's been um a lot more effort put into this space since the Abenezi government came to power that doesn't mean that it's done automatically as you say there have been issues to resolve with stakeholders about the kind of um what they're ask is I'm not saying that's still a problem but
>> they are largely resolved now. It's the first time I've seen the planets alive
which is
>> with AppCo calling for regulation.
>> Yeah, exactly. And that's a really important development um that makes it easier to move forward. So I'm not I'm not trying to say it's all the industry's fault. Not not that at all.
>> But my my respectful question is why aren't we why aren't we
>> we are we are working on it. It it's not yet finalized, but we have been working on it. We are working on it and I've already flagged that we'll have a bit more to say about that once once we've finalized our position.
>> Okay. But um you said an interim um an interim step. Minister, what?
>> Well, I I guess the solar panels is an example of that where you know there's the the review of the RAW act overall >> is a is obviously a big process. Um but there may be things that we can do along the way um that might start making a difference. The solar panel recycling scheme is an example of that. There may be other things that we can do in the meantime while we move towards that full review being implemented.
>> Okay. Um just as a matter of interest during the EPC reforms, I think the latest information I've received from the department is you've got 150 sorry 147 full-time equivalents working in the circular economy branch.
141
>> 141. Okay. I I got 147
>> 147 would have been at the time at which
we gave that. So that was the exact
figure at that
>> between 8 to 10 working on packaging reform out of that pardon and between 8 to 10 at out out of that 147 were working on packaging reform.
>> Well 8 to 10 were in are in the section that does packaging reform but other staff in the division all contribute to that work. So as you'd be aware for example the chemical composition of plastics is an important thing. So our chemical staff would contribute to those reforms that 8 to 10 does not include our staff who are busy working on the um global plastics treaty as well. So that 8 to 10 is the number of people in the um
>> how many were working on the global plastics treaty as a matter of interest.
>> Pardon me.
>> How many were working on the global plastics treaty as a matter of interest?
Senator Cameron Hutchinson, branch head for uh packaging stewardship and investment. Uh the global plastics treaty team would have something in the order of about 6 FTE, but I'd want to take precise number on notice.
and were any were any uh secundered to work on the EPBC reforms from the circular economy out of the 141 147? >> Okay. Um on solar panel recycling I'll get just get through these fairly quickly chair. >> Thank you sir. >> Um so the latest you you the 25 million that was announced recently is for a pilot program. Correct.
>> That's correct.
>> Okay. And the pilot program will in is designed to inform a bigger nationwide.
>> It's designed to inform options for a national product stewardship scheme.
>> Okay. So, um, how does this cut across the responses I got recently around, um, a regulatory impact statement? I understand you've been working with New South Wales and other states to develop a a regulatory impact statement.
>> It will happen in parallel, Senator. So the regulatory impact statement being prepared by um New South Wales um in response to the energy ministers council which commissioned that work um will be one component of informing um how both the states and territories and the commonwealth seek to take forward product stewardship for um solar panels which um the solar panel pilot which is focused on the collection and the logistics around managing solar panels um will also inform um the same body of work which is around what the most appropriate solution is for solar panel recycling moving forward nationally
>> and are we still seriously considering a voluntary scheme for a product shoot scheme in 2026
>> uh Senator I don't think we've taken any options off the table we will the department will prepare advice for
>> Is there something about solar panels that might make them more amendable to a voluntary scheme than a mandatory scheme
>> well Senator we haven't finished our work in relation to either the regulatory impact statement or the pilot scheme which has just been announced. >> Um that those two things along with other work the department and the states and territories will also be doing will help us make a determination about what the most appropriate scheme is for those products. I should note that solar panels themselves are actually have quite a high value in terms of the materials that are embedded within them. Um, and given that industry suggests they're potentially highly recyclable, for one of a better term, it's quite possible that the economics might work if you can solve the logistics problem. Now, that's just me >> musing on that. But we once we have done this work around the pilot and the work with New South Wales, we'll be in a better position, as I said, to provide advice to government um and then for
that advice going to come down to whether you recommend a national scheme for solar solar panels or are you going to outsource this to the states like just about everything else I've seen in the last 15 years?
>> Well, again, Senator, I think that will depend on the work that is underway at the moment to prove up potential solutions and what might be the most appropriate way of managing that particular issue. Senator,
can I just your your questioning is also going to the point there we have learned a lot of lessons on the voluntary schemes and they do have some pretty significant weaknesses that whatever we consider would need to take that into account free riders. So the reason why APCO I think has changed their positioning is they just couldn't keep their so I'm just wanting to acknowledge we know the weaknesses of the voluntary schemes and that'll be taken into
>> Okay. Um so um batteries could you give me an update on that whether anything's happening on batteries? Just following up on earlier questions that I've asked. >> obly different kinds of batteries but um I'm mostly interested in small small
Al so senator um as you're aware um the department has accredited B cycle for small batteries under 5 kg I think from Yes that's correct so that that voluntary product stewardship scheme is underway B cycle continues to operate um in relation to the small batteries um beyond that as I think we talked about the last time we appeared the um uh environment ministers determined that New South Wales, I think it is, look at my colleague, would put in place model legislation around a product stewardship for batteries that was then um other states and territories agreed that that would be um a pathway for them to introduce um similar mirror legislation in their states. Um
>> so it's the plan is to leave it to the states then not to have a national scheme just to be clear.
>> Well, certainly the Commonwealth's not remains engaged with the states and territories as that work happens. Um uh but yes at this stage
>> how do you remain engaged? What's your what's your role if the states are going on alone? New South Wales clearly got sick of waiting and went alone. So what what's your what's your what's your
uh senator. So through the under the opaces of the environment ministers meeting through senior officials, we continue to work through working groups that will report up to environment ministers on what New South Wales is leading on with uh the legislation that my colleague Mr. Trigger mentioned. So New South Wales has introduced its product lifestyle product life cycle responsibility act and I believe there are some regulations now to follow beyond that. uh they are to be model they are designed to be model rigs that the other states and territories can pick up as well but that we are doing that through a coordinated process under the opaces of the environment ministers
>> it's just it just fascinates me that we look at all these different schemes we got batteries we've got tires we've got solar panels we've got e-waste you know we we could go on and we've got this kind of hodgepodge of different state regulations and CDS is a very good example at the moment where there are some issues I mean does the department or the minister not see a role for federal coordination or federal schemes? I mean, isn't that what industry wants
um might get my colleagues to to to weigh in a second, but I guess from my perspective, this does go back to that overall reform of the recyclable and waste reduction act that we talked about um at the start of providing evidence today where we are right now in the space of finalizing the RAW act review and providing advice on options to government. Um, and I've already said to you that as part of those options, we'll look at things like extended producer responsibility. But going more broadly,
of course, we will >> What does look at mean?
>> Well,
>> why don't we just do something? Why don't we actually put some There's been no legislation under this government before parliament in the waist space for nearly four years. Why don't we actually just do something? Sure. Surely we've been working on this for long enough with the
>> review is underway to guide that kind of something that you're talking about. But it does
>> this language before
>> it does, you know, we want to do it right. We want to we're doing the policy work to uh that will lead to amendments, but you need to work out what the correct position is first. I understand I understand this is something you've been working on for a long time well before this government was ever elected. Um we are now we have since we were elected picked up the ball and we're moving towards making change.
>> Okay. But but thank and thank you for acknowledging that minister. It's that I've heard the I've heard things the same kind of responses going back 12 14 years ago 10 years ago 5 years ago. We've been working on this stuff for a long time and here we are in 2026. And we're still we're still not there yet.
>> 2036.
>> Sorry.
>> I heard 2036.
>> I didn't still around in 2036. [laughter] >> I guarantee you I won't be here. >> Um but I'll I'll uh Yeah, I'll be very happy if we finally get it done. Could I could I just ask just last question just a follow-up point of clarification on the um global plastics treaty? What is there anything happening in that now? I understand that was August.
>> Uh yes, Senator. So after um what the INC 5.2 was the title given to the August meeting. Um at that meeting, as you're aware, agreement couldn't be reached on text for the treaty. Since that time, the chair
>> I wasn't surprised, by the way. But yeah, >> the same thing that's been bothering us for years, right? >> Since that companies not wanting to be
regulated. Yeah. Since that time, the um chair of um the negotiations has um resigned. So um in fact, just over the weekend, a new chair, so there was a one-day meeting that happened over the weekend to elect a new chair. Um so a new chair has now been elected. The Chilean representative was successful in that. It will now be up to the new chair to work with the secretariat to set up an agenda for this year and beyond in terms of the next round or how that um in terms of intercessional meetings and then negotiating meetings in terms of taking that um global plastics treaty work forward. Australia remains fully committed to participating in um that process. Indeed, we had someone in the um meeting over the weekend um representing Australia's interests. So we will continue to play an active role as a participant in um work that continues to happen globally in relation to the global plastics treaty.
>> Okay. As long as we're not waiting for anything to happen on the international front before we do something. >> He's a really good example for us to lead on this.
>> Quite the contrary and we've had some discussions about this that you know we will remain involved in these negotiations for action at the global level. I think we all understand that there are some significant barriers to progress in the form of other countries. Um but we we have made an internal decision that we need to push on with our own measures um while we do what we can and and to prod the rest of the world. But that shouldn't get in the way of us making progress ourselves.
>> Well, I've said it to you personally, Minister. you've the Greens are waiting for you to bring something forward so we can pass it and be a world first, be a leader or whatever it takes, but it's been it's been been too long.
>> We're keen to make progress on.
>> Okay. Thank you. Thanks, chair.