Senate Environment and Communications Legislation Committee, , 4:46:59 to 5:11:11
The department details its farmer engagement strategy, including a land clearing hotline and updated mapping tools for compliance.
Topics: Land management, EPBC Act, Education
Speakers: Tim Wyndham, Dean Smith, Rachel Parry, Dani Yannopoulos, Michelle Ananda-Rajah, Hon Murray Watt, Varun Ghosh, Vicki Manson
Um all right. Thank you um all. We'll commence our session. We are still in outcome 2.1 and endeavoring uh to move swiftly through. We are a little bit behind the program already. U but I am in a position now to release um officials from the Australian Institute of Marine Science and the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Authority. So we um will pick up that time, but um in an effort to keep us moving along, I'm going to slightly shorten the blocks of questions. I'm just putting senators in the room on notice. And on that point,
>> Ch. Sorry, could I just check before lunch? Was it just the inspector general you released or is it someone else? No,
no, it's just the inspector general. Um, and then it's now it's the Australian Institute of Marine Science and Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Authority. >> Um, and with that, Senator Smith,
>> thank you very much. Can I ask some questions about the Savannah fire management method here?
>> That's probably Yeah.
>> Okay. Okay. >> And we're not there yet. We're not there yet. Um, I might just need a I might just need a moment just to regroup.
Senator Smith, would it help if government senators just did 10 minutes? Give you an opportunity.
>> I think I might I might be here now, but if um Senator O'Neal wants to go first, she's happy to I might just gather my thoughts.
>> I'm just here to
>> observe,
>> attend to your pain. Yeah.
>> Can I ask some questions about land clearing? >> You can. Great. Excellent. I understand that um a hotline has been established to assist farmers with queries in regards to land clearing matters.
>> Yes, that's correct.
how many how how long has the hotline
>> Senator, I'm just going to ask one of my colleagues to come up. >> That's exactly what I was looking for. >> Look at us all organized. higher away
>> Uh Senator, um obviously new rules commenced in December last year and so since that time what we've had operating really is an arrangement whereby the department contact center puts people who have concerns about land clearing in touch with experienced assessment officers uh so that they can work through the particular cases uh particular actions that they're looking at and potential environment impacts. essentially helping people to comply with the rules.
>> Okay. So, just help me understand it how it works from a process point of view. There's a telephone number that farmers can ring.
>> That's correct. Yes.
>> Y and what is that telephone number?
>> That telephone number is 1 800920528. 1 800 920-528.
Okay, the acoustics in this room are terrible and this door is going to have >> So that number 1 800 920528 was it?
>> That's correct.
>> Thanks very much. And how many and it's been operating since December. Uh that's
correct. So so that phone number is actually the department's contact center. So that has been operating for for many years but the specific arrangement in relation to land clearing has been operating since the 4th of December.
>> Great. Thank you. And how is the issue triage when someone calls the departmental contact center? Uh
look, I I don't have the specifics of exactly how the contact center deals with the range of different issues, but essentially again in relation to land clearing issues, um uh there's either uh a call forwarded on to an assessment officer if that assessment officer is available. more likely um the contact center takes that person's name and number and the issue that they want to deal with and they receive a call back from an assessment officer and uh you know the the time frame for that call back has been ranging one or two days mostly and up to a week at the at the
longest. So, how many calls have been received from farmers at the departmental contact number with land clearing uh questions, concerns?
>> Around about 180, Senator
>> 180. And how many of those have received a call received an answer to their query?
Uh all but six as of Friday had received a call back on the issues that they had
And what's been the maximum what's been the longest duration in which a caller has in which an assessment officer has taken to call back a inquiry.
As I said, Senator, I understand most have been within one to two days. I have heard a report of up to six days. Um, but I'll I'll take that on notice just
if you could just confirm the number of calls that have been received uh the the range in which the time has taken to respond. So obviously one day through to six what's been the maximum time taken to respond to a query and there might have been a justifiable reason for that. So if that's available as well. How the departmental contact number operates from when to when?
>> Uh 9 to5 believe uh sorry senator I believe but I'll confirm that for you.
>> 9 to5 Eastern Standard Time.
>> That's correct, Senator.
>> So a West Australian farmer would have to ring between 6:00 a.m. and 2:00 p.m.
>> Uh that's my understanding, but again I'll I'll check and confirm on notice.
And if you could let me
>> sorry Senator I just want to add one point. The contact center is not the only means by which landholders can obtain information related to the reforms. So the contact center is one avenue but we also have FAQs on our website. Um there's been a a webinar that has been recorded um for members of a force and national farmers federation which were recorded and distributed very widely. Um there's also instructions using on using the Queensland globe mapping tool to check the age of vegetation etc. So we are using a number of different mechanisms by which to reach um those affected.
>> Thank you. In u previous evidence in previous evidence there had been some discussion about how information had been provided to landholders. Can you just share with the committee
>> as in you're referring to evidence earlier this morning? Is that correct?
>> I think it was in previous evidence >> mapping information.
>> Sorry.
>> No, no, no. Just just ignore that other just ignore that comment for me. So um starting again, >> what information and how has the information been uh dispensed to land owners?
>> I think it's pretty much what Ms. Parry just said um Senator Smith. So there's uh guidance material on the department's website.
>> Yep.
>> Um in addition to the phone service if people have got specific inquiries a and a webinar >> you know I I've met with a force um >> uh others have met with other stakeholders who are also assisting get
>> What mapping information is made avail
are there are a range of mapping products available depending on what people need. And so, in relation to the changes to laws made uh or commencing December, um what we have done is provided instructions uh for how to use Queensland Globe, which is a state mapping service for how to identify those areas that are affected by the new provisions. Um we're also in the process of uh developing instructions for how to use Google Earth um for a similar purpose but covering the other states. And then my colleagues earlier talked about uh the mapping information that's available about species in the event that people do find themselves needing to go through a full assessment and
approval process. So, of the 180 calls that have been received, uh how many of them were about sightsp specific assessments?
>> Uh I I I don't have a specific number, but I'd imagine that most of those calls relate [clears throat] that to a specific land owner seeking to undertake a particular action. I guess the to give you a sense of the nature of those calls from our perspective, we're trying to make sure that everybody understands the rules and uh then help them comply. Um the the best thing we can do for people really is help them uh locate or manage it manage a particular activity so that it doesn't have an impact on species and it doesn't need an approval. And so that's the that's I guess the approach that we've taken to those calls. Um, but as I said, people do come in for lots of different reasons. And to give you a sense of it, most have been uh uh seeking or asking questions in relation to self assessment and referral and approval. Um, some have been about mapping. Uh, about less than well half the questions have been in relation to the 15year rule that we were discussing earlier on. And then there are a range of definitional issues around what what exactly is land clearing does thinninging count as land clearing and so on where um we talk through those talk talk through with those people try and understand the circumstance that they're dealing with the activity and provide advice on how best to proceed.
Do you keep any information about how long uh the assessment officer spends with the inquiry?
I'll take that on notice, Senator. What I would say is that um where uh a person calling has required extensive information, there have been follow-ups and so I I believe the outcome of most of those calls has been that the person has been satisfied. In some cases there has been a need for uh more granular work around the self- assessment and in those cases uh we've provided access to an assessment officer to work through a structured self assessment using a template and we're providing advice back to those people to understand what they you know the best options for next
case officers are there when when when when an inquiry comes through it gets discussed it gets understood but then there might be some granularity that's required in that self assessment process are there specialized case workers or case officers
>> yeah so senator there are nearly 400 people in the division that looks after assessments and approvals um there is some specialization within that group and so there are branches that focus on particular uh states and so in this case a lot of focus on Queensland. Um within that though there are particular officers who do have extensive experience in and around land clearing um looking at environment impacts in regional areas particularly and uh they're they're obviously best placed uh to provide advice. And so our ambition is to seek uh to connect land owners with those experienced assessment officers that are most appropriate to the circumstance.
can you just explain to me again the the the mapping exercise? So there's a Queensland tool, but then you said you were working up other tools for other jurisdictions. Did I understand that correctly?
>> That's correct, Senator. So um uh most of the calls, more than 95% of calls that we've received have been from Queensland. So we have focused on that area. >> We know that that land managers in Queensland are familiar with the Queensland Globe service provided by the state government. And so in an effort to make it as simple as possible, we provided instructions for people how to use Queensland Globe to identify those areas that are affected by the new provisions. That that solution obviously only works in Queensland. So, as I said, we're also looking at how people can use Google Earth to achieve the same thing in other
>> And [clears throat] what's the level of uh satisfaction uh with the um Queensland maps that are available at the moment?
>> I understand people are getting the answers that they need at this stage. Um but this is a phase where we know that uh uh people are uncertain about the rules and so we're being very active in providing the help that is required and we'll calibrate that as needed uh from
here. M do you or are you expected to go back to the 180 at the moment? M uh and just do an assessment in terms of the level of satisfaction that um that people had in terms of the response that was given to them. >> That's I can understand that people may be satisfied when they make the inquiry but then they go away and subsequently go through the the process. So they might have different satisfaction rates having gone through the process.
>> Understand Senator. So we we don't have a formal process for doing that. The thing we have been active in since December is meeting regularly with um peak bodies from the a sector and they have been a very useful channel for understanding the extent to which people uh understand the rules and uh what parts of the process are difficult and so we'll continue to rely on that feedback loop um as we as I said calibrate the level of help that we're providing to the sector we've been speaking regularly with DAFF. They have been attending meetings that we have with the a sector. Um and so a very good connection uh there.
>> One last query that's last and the um the the the departmental contact line um how long does that intend to operate or sort of that an indefinite operation at the moment? Indefinite service.
>> Uh well I guess this is a service that the that the department provides in an ongoing way. Um people can call us regardless of sector for help with environment assessment and approvals. Um and so that that's an open offer and as I said we'll continue to provide focus support to the a sector for as long as that as that's needed to ensure a good level of understanding and compliance.
>> So the 95% of queries that are Queensland uh based so 180 so 95% of those 180 are Queensland orientated.
>> Thank you, Senator Smith. Senator Renand Roger.
>> Uh, thank you, Chair. Um, just a question relating to compliance activities. Um, what kind of activities has the department undertaken to provide awareness of changes to the continuing use exemption under the new reforms?
>> Yeah. So, Senator, that does relate to uh exactly the the issue that that Senator Smith was uh raising. Um as I said, the general frame that we bring in a moment like this where it, you know, it's become clear that um some part of the economy, some groups or some communities don't quite understand the rules. It's really important that we're leaning into education that people understand the rules. And so um we've been seeking to uh convey as much information and deal with frequently asked questions and so on through regular meetings with peak uh uh peak bodies from the egg sector as well as through other channels like state governments and catchment management authorities. Um uh as I said two twofold um seeking that people understand the rules and then seeking or or seeking to help people comply. And so that's really where the contact center comes in and seeking to work through the specific cases uh that individual land managers are are dealing with. Obviously, you know, there are some cases of, you know, potential non-compliance and the department does receive reports, but it's within that context, I think, that it's useful then to throw to my colleague, Miss Yianopoulos about the compliance approach.
>> Thanks. Um Danny, head of division for environmental permitting and compliance. So from the compliance element, as my colleague said, prevention is key. You know, that's what we're about is is protecting the environment. So sort of prosecuting our way out of it is not is not where we want to be. But it is unreferred illegal land clearing is one of our compliance priorities. Um and it is something that we look at in a risk based and informed way. We use the data. We use allegations from the public. Uh we've had a pilot into the National Vegetation Monitoring System that brings up events for us so that we can have a look at it. We're in the [clears throat] early phases of the changes of the reforms. Uh so that education and awareness is first and foremost, but deliberate non-compliance will not be uh put up with and we will use the full force of the law where we find it. Um I
understand that even before the changes to um the EPBC act, uh clearing of native species has been a focus of the department's comp compliance efforts. Could you outline what work that has
>> in terms of the the outcomes that we've
achieved? >> Yeah.
So overall, I've just got some headline figures just in terms of the department has invested or there's been investment in compliance resources and we've had significant results in that's higher in the last two years. So we've issued 75 infringement notices which is over seven times higher than the last two years prior. We've issued 40 directed variations to deal with non-compliance which is 10 times higher than the two years before. Uh we've undertaken 19 arrests relating into illegal wildlife trade which is more than four times higher than the two years prior. And we've issued 112 warning letters which is four times higher than the two years prior. So as you can see we've made a concerted effort in the last 12 months.
>> That's impressive. Um and what's the impact of illegal clearing on the
So I think um Senator one of the one of the quotes that I used previously was um I think um habitat loss accounts and and clearing of habitat loss is accounts for about 60% of um threats to um endangered species. So we know that there's a direct link between habitat loss and and threats um for species survival. That's why compliance and land clearing is a a focus in the in the reforms to bring that sector on on an equal um level playing field with other sectors and why it is um within our compliance and enforcement priorities.
>> Understood. Um and can I confirm that these changes to the continuous use provision clarify the way that this provision has always been designed to operate? for example, with regards to activity that has increased in scale or in intensity.
>> Yes, Senator. So, I I can talk through the rules that have applied since 2000 and then some clarification on the specific change that commenced in December. So, under the rules that have operated since 2000, a land manager is exempt from needing an approval if it's a continuous use. Essentially, if it was happening before the act started, that person shouldn't need approval to continue afterwards. That exemption was always limited [clears throat] by um provisions around no intensification, the activity couldn't expand, and if the activity changed in location or nature, uh then it wasn't covered by the exemption if the impacts increased. the the change that's come in with the 15year rule really just clarifies that if land clearing hasn't occurred in 15 years it's a simple rule to say actually the continuing use exemption does not apply and so from that perspective it is more straightforward albeit I do know that it has created some confusion in the sector that we're seeking to clarify to be really clear it's just about whether the exemption applies the 15-year rule does not apply apply to how impacts are assessed or managed after that point.
>> Um and just with respect then to landholders, how do we ensure that they aren't um going to be subject to compliance activity? We've talked about the challenges of diffusing that sort of knowledge down to the the base. Right.
>> So I think as um Missopoulos indicated our priority and and our our number one is ensuring that people have the information that they need in order to comply with the law. So that's um you know compliance efforts can take a full spectrum from education through to full um prosecution. So we are putting a lot of effort into making sure that proponents fully understand their obligations under the law. Um but then when there's obviously willful acts of um contravention of the law um the law will be applied.
>> Sure. Thank you.
>> Thank you very much. >> There's also the proximity to a water course. Um so if is it 50 or 75 m I think it's 50
>> 50 m
>> this is in the reef catchment only
>> right that's right okay got
>> that there's there's effectively two changes one about regrowth which is national and one about >> clearing near water courses in the