Speakers: Nerida O'Loughlin, Cathy Rainsford, Sarah Hanson-Young, Dean Smith, Robert Crofts, Alana Fraser, Michael Brealey, Nita Green, Varun Ghosh
Transcript
Sarah Hanson-Young
>> Uh can I go back to the new commercial radio code of practice, please? Um Mr. your um press release um that accompanied or your statements that have accompanied the release of the code of practice today um says that there was a significant number of submissions to the review. Um and it called for that's called for strengthened rules around the local music. um uh issues. I I guess my my question is um you haven't put strengthened rules in the code. You've seem to have kicked that kind of to another process or down I I just I don't understand why you didn't take the opportunity with the
Nerida O'Loughlin
Um, Senator, obviously the code is developed by the industry. Um, and um, we spent quite a lot of time going through those provisions. As I mentioned earlier, I think and my colleagues can go into further detail, but my memory was that some of the proposals particularly around um, shortening time frames of when Australian content is broadcast on radio um, were options that were not available. we considered were not available under the Australian US free trade agreement.
Sarah Hanson-Young
>> So can I so can I ask about that? Who gave you that advice?
Nerida O'Loughlin
>> Um well that was our internal legal
Sarah Hanson-Young
>> Who who who in your team
Nerida O'Loughlin
>> would be our our lawyers.
Sarah Hanson-Young
>> Okay. Um and you asked them what the impact of the US free trade agreement
Nerida O'Loughlin
we um turned our mind to whether the proposals that were being put forward to us would be consistent with the US free
Sarah Hanson-Young
why didn't you get I mean that's a big call to make if if you think that the US free trade agreement is restricting us from doing Australia from doing things that that protect our own culture and our own um cultural sovereignty. I mean that's there's there's carveouts in the US free trade agreement specifically for did you seek to get that advice
Nerida O'Loughlin
checked or >> It was on a particular provision around the time frame. So, the US free trade agreement, please correct me if I'm incorrect. Um, it it gives a scope of hours for that material to be delivered between 6:00 a.m. and midnight. and what the industry had been put into us that they wanted to bring that back between 6:00 and 6:00 a.m. and 6:00 p.m. It was our view that that wasn't um uh that that was not open to us to agree to um if if that was
Sarah Hanson-Young
trade agreement that the US president himself has trashed.
Nerida O'Loughlin
it was not we did not consider in the gift of the regulator to address that if there were changes to be made which had consequences for the US free trade agreement that would be better discussed
Sarah Hanson-Young
>> why didn't you ask government for their
Nerida O'Loughlin
>> uh because sorry
Alana Fraser
>> no sorry the chair has written to the minister for the arts um on these matters and raised the issues um that came through the consultation on the review including around the uh around the the performance period.
Sarah Hanson-Young
>> Around the what?
Alana Fraser
>> Around the the performance period. So those hours in which the yeah the quotas apply.
Sarah Hanson-Young
>> Um have you sought advice from foreign affairs and trade?
Nerida O'Loughlin
>> Uh no senator. We we have written to the minister for the arts and the minister for communications on the matter. >> Quite recently.
Alana Fraser
>> So
Nerida O'Loughlin
>> I can take I can take
Sarah Hanson-Young
>> like as in this year
Nerida O'Loughlin
>> quite recently. Yes.
Alana Fraser
>> About a week and a half ago.
Sarah Hanson-Young
>> And have you had a response?
Nerida O'Loughlin
>> Uh no, Senator, it was quite recent.
Sarah Hanson-Young
>> Okay. Um, and has anyone in government previously raised this issue of uh the US free trade agreement impacting how much local content is aired and broadcast on Australian radio? I just I'm I'm genuinely interested,
Nerida O'Loughlin
>> Senator
Sarah Hanson-Young
>> because I don't know why we are letting the United States dictate how much Australian content we have on our radio, >> Senator and our airwaves,
Nerida O'Loughlin
>> Senator, the point that we were turning our mind to was the restrictions on ours. There was no change to the requirement for local content on radio.
Sarah Hanson-Young
So why would the US free trade agreement
Nerida O'Loughlin
construct in the
Alana Fraser
>> and there are very particular reservations to do with these time periods in the in the free trade agreement. Um but I think we'd need to take any further detail on notice.
Sarah Hanson-Young
>> It doesn't seem as though the the United States president gives two hoots about what's in any of these agreements. So, Australian content and Australian music gets left on the shelf because uh because of this. I mean, I think it's
Nerida O'Loughlin
>> there's been no no change to the requirements in the code for local content.
Sarah Hanson-Young
>> No, but M. Lachlan, I've asked you why you didn't strengthen it and you've cited the US free trade agreement
Nerida O'Loughlin
>> in terms of the timing. Yes,
Sarah Hanson-Young
>> but you haven't strengthened it at all.
Nerida O'Loughlin
We have to be aware of the international obligations of the government.
Sarah Hanson-Young
>> But you actually haven't sought any independent advice on that.
Nerida O'Loughlin
>> Um I think our advice was very clear.
Sarah Hanson-Young
>> Could you table that advice for us
Nerida O'Loughlin
>> I will take that on notice.
Sarah Hanson-Young
>> Uh why do you need to take that on notice? I mean you can
Nerida O'Loughlin
>> because
Sarah Hanson-Young
>> you can answer it on notice but I'm asking are you taking on notice whether you will give us the advice or not?
Nerida O'Loughlin
Senator, I'd like to turn my mind to whether the matters of legal professional privilege.
Sarah Hanson-Young
>> So whether you're seeking whether you keep it secret.
Nerida O'Loughlin
>> Well, Senator, legal professional privilege um is an important um reason why um legal advice is kept um internally focused. So
Varun Ghosh
the sorry the chair has taken it on on notice um she's entitled to consider whether she makes a public interest immunity claim um and one of the elements of that may be the nature of the advice in
Sarah Hanson-Young
>> but I guess that's what I'm trying to understand are you see are you making a public interest immunity claim or are you
Nita Green
>> she's taking it on notice
Sarah Hanson-Young
>> yep I understand that is she taking on notice whether she even answers the question or is she taking on notice answering the question asked for the
Nita Green
It's not a question.
Sarah Hanson-Young
>> What was a question to provide the
Nerida O'Loughlin
>> Senator, I'm taking on notice the question about whether to provide the
Sarah Hanson-Young
>> Okay. Um, could I um ask you some questions about uh telecommunications and the spectrum of uh the big three Um, I've asked you previous questions about this, Mr. Lachlan, and um, uh, each time, uh, you haven't been able to give fullome answers. Um, I'm hoping that today you can give a bit more information. Where are we up to with the um, uh, spectrum licenses?
Nerida O'Loughlin
Senator, I'm not quite sure I haven't given fullome answers in previous discussions. uh where we're up to with the Spectrum licenses is that we issued our preferred views on those licenses in December last year.
Sarah Hanson-Young
>> Um and uh you you you are still um so you've advised government that not to go to auction.
Nerida O'Loughlin
>> Uh we've made public our preferred views and that's our preferred view
Sarah Hanson-Young
>> and that uh and that view has gone to the minister or what's the process there?
Nerida O'Loughlin
>> It's been made public. They are our preferred views.
Sarah Hanson-Young
>> Mhm. And um and has the government responded?
Nerida O'Loughlin
>> Uh there is no requirement for the government to respond. They we have put out our preview preferred views in terms of the um process of uh the renewal of um expiring spectrum licenses. We are consulting at the moment on u the price uh of that the fair market price of that spectrum. That's a consultation process that's out publicly at the moment as well
Sarah Hanson-Young
>> because you're not going because you don't want to go to to auction. So therefore, you have to come up with what the fair price is.
Nerida O'Loughlin
>> Uh Senator, we believe that it is in the public interest to renew these licenses and that's our preferred view.
Sarah Hanson-Young
>> Even if providers are doing a shoddy job
Nerida O'Loughlin
>> I'll take that as a comment. Senator,
Sarah Hanson-Young
how how are you going to determine what a fair market price is? I will pass over
Nerida O'Loughlin
to Mr. Brealey and his colleagues to go through that process. Uh
Michael Brealey
>> Michael Brealey, general manager of the communications infrastructure division. Um we've um engaged a range of consultants and we're undertaking a uh a international benchmarking uh exercise to determine a fair market rate for those licenses.
Sarah Hanson-Young
>> Uh which consultants have you engaged?
Michael Brealey
>> Uh Mr. Crofts can take you through.
Robert Crofts
executive manager spectrum allocations licensing and policy branch. Uh we have I think nine consultants that we've engaged so far over the course of this project. Uh on pricing um there are I believe seven seven of those are on pricing. Uh we've engaged Plum Consulting. Um Ian Martin advisory. Uh and both of those we engaged multiple times um Frontier Economics and Econ. So we've engaged Palm Consulting twice on pricing and Ian Martin advisory three
Sarah Hanson-Young
>> And how much have these um consultants costed
Robert Crofts
um for the valuation for the pricing? It has been $370,000 200 and $370,225.50
Sarah Hanson-Young
>> and that's to who?
Robert Crofts
>> Plum Consulting, Ian Martin Advisory, Frontier Economics and Econ.
Sarah Hanson-Young
>> So all together?
Robert Crofts
>> Yes.
Sarah Hanson-Young
>> They've all had a piece of that 300 >> 375 70
Robert Crofts
>> $370,000. Yeah.
Sarah Hanson-Young
the license has is there is there a uh is there a current price by which ACMA is predicting is fair at this stage? So what what what last time we spoke um you were talking giving companies like Optas a cut price extension.
Nerida O'Loughlin
>> So we weren't talking about a cut price. We were talking about a fair price. So our preliminary prices um our updated preliminary prices for renewal of all ESLs held by the mobile network and NBN co is $7.34 billion. So that's um more than the upper end of our previous estimates. Um and that's mainly because we through the consultation process that we went through we had additional evidence provided to us about other international benchmarks that we should take into account which we have done so um and then that's uh the process that we are undergoing at the moment through an additional consultation process.
Sarah Hanson-Young
>> So is that what you value the spectrum
Nerida O'Loughlin
at? uh that's what we consider would be a fair market price for the range of spectrum um available under these expiring spectrum licenses.
Sarah Hanson-Young
>> So in totality
Nerida O'Loughlin
>> that's correct Senator.
Sarah Hanson-Young
>> So how much of that spectrum would opt?
Nerida O'Loughlin
>> I don't know whether we I don't think we've done that analysis.
Robert Crofts
>> We can tell you answers in terms of bands as opposed to megahertz. So, uh, Optus has holdings in the 700 in terms of what's in this process, the 700 MHz band, the 1800 MHz band, 2 GHz, 2.3, 2.5, and 3.4.
Sarah Hanson-Young
>> And out of that 7.34 billion, how much is that worth at a fair price?
Robert Crofts
>> Uh, we currently have Optus at um $1.89
Sarah Hanson-Young
That's what you your that's your current valuation of what their all of their license spectrum is
Nerida O'Loughlin
>> across all those bands
Sarah Hanson-Young
they pay last time?
Robert Crofts
over the course of I think it's about 10 odd years through a range of kind of allocation processes, auctions, renewals, um and other other processes, they paid uh $1.72 billion in nominal
Varun Ghosh
>> Senator Hanson Young, one minute.
Sarah Hanson-Young
that doesn't even take in inflation,
Robert Crofts
>> No, it does not.
Sarah Hanson-Young
>> So, they'd be getting a cut price in
Nerida O'Loughlin
real terms. Senator, the work that we have done on the international benchmarking which is the basis for the work that the team has done and the um uh peerre process we've been through recognizes that over the last 10 15 years spectrum prices internationally have fallen significantly. So that is why we've come that is partly what's influenced our assessment of what would be a fair market price today rather than the prices that might have been paid through previous administration pro administrative process or previous auction processes. Mr. Crofts.
Robert Crofts
>> Yeah, if I can also add to the chair's answer, Senator, um I think if you look beyond the headline figures, there's a more complex story. Um so some of the low band spectrum which in the early in the early years of this was all was kind of very highly valued very useful for um coverage across across the country uh and and some of the kind of only bands available early on. Uh we've seen significant decreases in that in the order of 39 to 55%. Um but the mid-band spectrum which is what is used uh more for 5G and and more data inensive processes that has seen much more significant changes in value in the order of beyond 400% according to our
Sarah Hanson-Young
>> what's the what's the incentive of a big telco like opt to improve their service when they get to pay less for the same access to keep the same customers to sell the same products? What's the incentive,
Nerida O'Loughlin
>> Senator? As we explained, our pricing is based on international benchmarking and what has happened across those spectrum bands over years. We believe we've come to a fair market price for those different bands and those different spectrum. Um, we've also been asked previously around whether or not through this process, this spectrum license process, whether other matters should be considered, including things like coverage. We believe under the RAGCOM's act that the licenses that we um provide really don't lend themselves to that. And any matter in terms of improved coverage or improved service would be a matter for government and would be through the telecommunications act license conditions, not the spectrum licenses for which we're responsible and we expect that that's an ongoing conversation with the government um from various people who are uh asking the government to consider those matters.
Varun Ghosh
>> Senator, I thank you. I'll have to move the call but I can I'll come back to you. Um Senator and Smith or Henderson. >> Senator Smith, thank you.
Dean Smith
>> Thank you very much and uh thank you very much for officials for being available. can you just update the committee in regards to the status of your review in regards to the 18th of September Optus
Nerida O'Loughlin
so where we're at at the moment um is that we have we're undertaking investigations in a number of areas against a number of different instruments. So there's the fundamental um instrument called the telecommunications emergency call service determination which is the primary determination that puts the obligations on carriage service providers and carriers to provide triple0 and then there are other um newer obligations in terms of the customer communications for outages industry standard which is the obligations put in place to notify customers the public and relevant stakeholders. And then we're also looking at um some requirements under the emergency call service requirements industry code. We have issued notices to Optus. We've received an extensive amount of information following those requests. Um and we expect to move that um investigation forward as quickly as possible. I don't have a final date for you, but I can tell you that is one of our highest priorities of the authority
Dean Smith
>> So
Nerida O'Loughlin
>> I'll ask my colleagues if they want to add anything to that. Thank you.
Dean Smith
>> So, while I appreciate there's not a exact date or an expected date for completion, what quarter of the year are you working >> We're in the first quarter now.
Nerida O'Loughlin
Senator, I'm I can't really indicate that at this moment given where we're at in the investigation um and the complexity of the information that's been provided to us. I can only assure you that we are proceeding as quickly as we possibly can with this investigation and we will make it public as soon as we have come to our conclusions.
Dean Smith
Are you engaging any external experts to assist you in the examination of the material that Optus has provided?
Nerida O'Loughlin
>> No, Senator, we're not.
Dean Smith
>> How many staff are dedicated to this
Nerida O'Loughlin
>> I might need to take that on notice, Senator, because there's the our line era staff and also our legal team. So I
Cathy Rainsford
probably undertake >> uh Senator Kathy Reigns for general manager consumer division. Um I think the hesitation there is that um is that many of our investigators are carrying more than one investigation. What I can assure you and the committee is that um the work on this investigation is our highest priority. Um certainly there are at least um I think three staff who are uh who have it at if you like the top of their you know to-do lists um to action it so that we can and uh provide advice to the authority
Nerida O'Loughlin
>> but that also involves not only just staff but the senior management of that staff in terms of escalation and also the engagement of the authority >> um so which is intense.
Dean Smith
>> So the intensity is going to be maintained over many months.
Cathy Rainsford
>> Indeed.
Dean Smith
>> excuse my ignorance, but isn't it more efficient to be working to a deadline and then be seeking an extension of a
Nerida O'Loughlin
>> Uh, Senator, what I'm saying to you,
Dean Smith
>> I just know you you understand the point that I'm making.
Nerida O'Loughlin
>> Yes. But investigations are al always very difficult to put a deadline against um because you may um for example and I'm not saying in this case this is the case but in in some of our investigations we may need to go back and seek additional information from the company and we have that quite a lot I'd have to say um where we don't consider that we have sufficient information we al also may depending on our investigative processes um recog recognize that again there might be new material or further material that would enhance our consideration of the matter. Um and also in some circumstances again not here but in some circumstances we may need to seek additional information if for example we want to pursue something in the court. So it really is a matter of working through those issues before we can come to a conclusion.
Dean Smith
>> How would you characterize Optus' cooperation thus far? I think they have
Nerida O'Loughlin
been very strongly cooperative in this process.
Dean Smith
you haven't found it necessary to go back to them seeking large amounts of
Nerida O'Loughlin
Senator, but we're still working through the information that we have.
Dean Smith
>> Right. and Optus hasn't found it necessary to bring forward any updated information based on perhaps sort of lack of thoroughess in the original information they might have provided
Cathy Rainsford
>> No, Senator. So certainly to to date we haven't they've provided the information um fully that we had requested from them. Optus has not come to us since and said um you know they have further information uh that they wish to provide or amendments to any of that. So I think what the what the chair was um uh referring to there is that if it is um it is fairly common um uh albeit not inevitable in our investigations that the analysis we do on that material then prompts um uh the need for us to make further inquiries and elicit further information to inform the conclusions.
Dean Smith
>> And at what level is ACMA enga at what level are you engaged with Optus? Well,
Cathy Rainsford
um, so my level, um, well, there are a number of people, but this fits within my division and, um, and I'm responsible for oversighting, um, that investigation. So, we can get advice to the authority, but I deal with Optus very regularly.
Dean Smith
>> So, the ACMA investigation in Optus um, >> into Optus is a is a high priority.
Cathy Rainsford
>> Yes, it's yes, it's very high priority.
Nerida O'Loughlin
Senator just to your previous point about additional information while we have not necessarily sought obviously um Optus itself uh released the independent investigation done by Dr. Kerry Shot uh back in December which also looks at the circumstances goes through what the independent reviewer sees as the circumstances. Um, so we're also looking at that review to see whether that is consistent or inconsistent with the data we're getting. So that's an also important piece for us to take into account in the investigation.
Dean Smith
>> What observations would you make about the shot review?
Nerida O'Loughlin
>> Um, I think it was a very comprehensive and well conducted review. Um I think what surprised me um was that the shot review uncovered quite a lot of failures in internal risk management >> both at at each stage of risk management your initial stage you your escalated stage and your independent audit. >> I think that was um surprising in such a large organization. So that would be there were other matters in there that were um consistent with our observations but I think that one was something that optists really need to look very carefully at um and was surprising to us.
Dean Smith
>> I'm happy to be corrected but I think that was a line of inquiry from some senators when they u were interrogating Singtel officials um at our opt inquiry as well. How what what if any verbal updates have you provided to government?
Cathy Rainsford
>> Um Senator, we um uh from time to time we provide uh sort of status updates to the minister's office in terms of where we're at um in the process of our investigation. Um those those don't go to the substance of the matter that that um the substance of the matter in terms of our analysis and what that might um uh you know where that might lead in terms of conclusions around non-compliance or not are purely matters for the authority and and are not not shared outside of the ACMA.
Dean Smith
>> How many status updates has ACMA to
Cathy Rainsford
>> the minister? I'd have to take that on notice. It would uh I'm I'm confident in saying it would be under half a dozen since the uh since the investigation opened in late September.
Dean Smith
>> Do you provide them under your own initiative or does the minister's office and or the department request them?
Nerida O'Loughlin
>> We've tended them under our own initiative. Senator, so that might be you know update on process i.e. 521 notices have been sent to Optus and 521 notices have been responded to. So it's very much that process stuff.
Dean Smith
yes, if you could uh on notice just uh identify the number of status updates that have been provided and if you're able to which ones you initiated and which may have been requested by um the minister or her office or or her office. Uh does the ACMA investigation have a formal term of reference?
Nerida O'Loughlin
Uh, no Senator, it it's it's um our investigation is against those pieces of the law that I described earlier.
Dean Smith
>> Yep. And and and I I identified three. >> Yes. the instrument that you're throwing the review into the 18th of September Optus outage, is that going to capture any other Optus outages?
Cathy Rainsford
>> Um, no. Well, that that particular investigation isn't um Senator, we have a separate investigation open into an outage around the Dapto area in New South Wales. So um so that is that is progressing sort of largely in parallel although with slightly lesser priority.
Dean Smith
>> Have ACMA sought any additional resourcing for this investigation?
Nerida O'Loughlin
Uh not for this investigation, Senator. Um although in Mayo um the government did allocate additional funding to us over the forward estimates and that takes into account um the number of um new regulatory responsibilities that have been introduced around triple0 but also um the uh the new role of the triple0 custodian who can also request us to do things like directions to the industry. So it really is it is it's increasing our resources across the board on these triple0ero matters.
Dean Smith
>> Yeah. The um opt outage has sort of brought to life um what might loosely be called device issues. >> Um what approach has ACMA been taken? Is is ACMA taking to these sort of device issues that have sort of been exposed as a result of the Optus and other outages? You know Samsung comes to mind. Are you dealing with them in a in in a way separate to each um specific inquiry or will they be captured within each inquiry? Because of course I'm assuming rightly or wrongly there might be some generic
Cathy Rainsford
>> Yeah. Um so Senator, if I can just start by there are a number of device matters that we're dealing with. The 18th of September Optus outage is actually a matter that didn't relate. It was a pure network outage that related to the access to triple0. >> Um that said there are um some further matters uh related to TPG services. um one around the Wentworth Falls area and one around the Ingleburn area where there are um device uh device compatibility or accessibility issues in question and both of those are subject to a formal investigation by us. Um I think device issues probably came particularly to the four with the um then um upcoming closure of the 3G networks in Australia. Um and as a result of the analysis around that, the then minister had directed us to amend the emergency call services determination to um to require what's colloquially called blocking of devices that would not be able to reach trip0 if the user tried to do that. There were um a a number of devices blocked to coincide with the closure of the 3G networks by Telstra and Optus in late October 2024. Then um and th those obligations are um they're ongoing. They're not specific to that um to that uh the the particular vaulty related issues that that um uh uh came to light during um during the 3G closure process. Um we have since um of course found uh become aware in October last year of the Samsung device issues. Um and then I think as uh it was last week or the week before obviously there's um some matters came up around certain Apple iPhones. So from the ACMA's perspective our primary focus is which of those raise compliance issues um and where we where um it looks to us like uh Telco has not met their obligations to block those phones. Um we can and do open investigations into those matters. That said, um it I the the device um issues uh it's a very simple way of explaining what is a a complex sort of interoperability um uh connection that needs to work for people to get access through to triple0. And I think some of these have shown up for us that um that uh the um they've shown up that um that the blocking obligations we've got in place probably need to uh be looked at to see whether or not they're um there are properly calibrated for um for the range of issues that are coming up through devices. So, some of which relate to firmware updates, some relate to software updates, some relate to how um devices are um connecting to and then transiting through the various networks in there. And we're in discussion with the triple0ero custodian as we try and unpack what that looks like and whether or not um and whether or not there's further advice that we need to provide to government on whether whether some adjustments to that um regime might be um worth considering.
Dean Smith
>> These device issues are they a global phenomena? Do other jurisdictions are other jurisdictions going through a
Nerida O'Loughlin
interesting question um Senator and we expect it is probably the case um but but we haven't uh really looked into it. I think the this, as Miss Rainsford said, this sort of came to light very much in the 3G closure where we found um well, sorry, the networks found that there were hundreds of thousands of phones that would not be able to connect at all um after 3G closure because they were reliant on the 3G network. um the Samsung devices, what we found is that they also were falling back to TPG 3G networks in emergency call services where that network didn't exist anymore. So um um we think there there are probably similar issues um internationally. I think what's possibly unique in the Australian environment is the new requirement that networks must find out those devices on their networks and let people know that there's an issue with them and then to proceed to encourage people to update or place their phones um and then blocking. So I think that approach is quite different to what we've seen internationally. Does
Dean Smith
the investigation just two more two more lines of question does the investigation uh require does the investigation just involve a desktop analysis reading documentation that has been provided to you or does ACMA go and interview individuals?
Nerida O'Loughlin
Um in terms of the 18th of September investigation, our role is to look again um of the circumstances against the rules that we expressed um previously. So we don't have a role in dealing directly with people who may have been
Dean Smith
>> The report gets concluded. >> Do you share a draft of that report with Optus?
Nerida O'Loughlin
>> Um not necessarily. But she may it will it will depend on >> what that finds. Um and uh indeed where if we do what contraventions are
Dean Smith
>> and um based on your exchange with Senator PCO I'm assuming that the media release you issue with your report um won't be shared with Hoptus.
Nerida O'Loughlin
>> I think that would be the case. It also depends, Senator, what the next stage is. I mean, obviously, we're looking at compliance at the moment, but then if we do find contraventions, then we need to turn our attention to enforcement. Um and that may um our 2022 investigation of the Optus data breach, the big Optus data breach which affected so many Australians um has gone through a process of looking at compliance, looking at enforcement options and that is currently before the courts um and we expect it will not be heard until possibly the middle of next year. So that that process is um ongoing but obviously subject to um the timing of the court
Dean Smith
>> and the report is made available to government um to the minister the same time it's publicly available.
Nerida O'Loughlin
>> Uh that would be my expectation. Yes.
Dean Smith
>> Great. Thank you very much.
Varun Ghosh
>> Thank you Senator Smith. Um, Senator