Senate Environment and Communications Legislation Committee, , 7:43:07 to 7:55:08
Questioning regarding the travel costs for SBS staff and clients to the FIFA World Cup, with the Managing Director citing commercial confidentiality for refusing to disclose specific figures.
Topics: Travel and event costs, Government spending, Integrity
Speakers: Senator The Hon Sarah Henderson, Ms Jane Palfreyman, Unknown Speaker
Thank you very much. Ms. Poffryman, thank you so much to you and your team for your attendance. Apologies we are running over. Look, I want to start with your travel costs to the World Cup. Can you provide us with the details of those costs? Who attended, how many staff, and if you could give us a breakdown of those costs?
Senator, thanks for the question. We did undertake a client event trip to the World Cup, as I think we mentioned when we last spoke in this forum. This event obviously enables us to generate revenue and is a significant portion of SBS's total commercial revenues. The client event of this nature actually forms part of the overall sponsorship arrangements with the key sponsor who sponsor the World Cup on SBS, and the details of those arrangements are commercial and confidence. In saying that, I can answer some of your questions. We take 15 clients along, they are our key sponsors to the event in America.
So SBS is accountable to the Parliament for its expenditure. So the fact that it might be confidential does not mean it is exempt from disclosure. Now it may well be that if it's commercial in confidence, then may well be elements of this that could be redacted, but I'm sorry, I am seeking details as to these costs. Irrespective of whether you've taken clients or others, could you please detail the costs of your travel to the FIFA World Cup?
Senator, the event that you're referring to is a key part of our efforts to generate revenue for the FIFA World Cup. To share those costs in this forum would put us at a commercial disadvantage. We are fighting for every ad dollar across the market. It is ever more competitive. We are not only competing with major broadcasters, but in fact, social media platforms, global SFOD players. My role, one of my roles is to safeguard our ability to be efficient. Sharing the information in this way in this forum would be akin to sharing our commercial strategy, what we do with our competitors, which works against our abilities.
Pofferman, I'm asking about your travel costs. So I'm sorry, I I don't think this cuts the mustard. How many SBS staff travelled overseas for the FIFA World Cup?
Senator, in the client event we're referring to, we had three SBS staff alongside 15 clients.
Three, and that was yourself?
Yes.
And who else attended from SBS?
That was our commercial director or our media director of media sales, myself and our deputy chair at the time.
Deputy Chair? And what were the costs for the SBS staff?
Senator, all the costs are born equally across the attendees. Part of, you know, obviously our government appropriation assumes that we earn commercial revenue to compete in that landscape. It is the most competitive. I've certainly seen it in my time. To share costs is akin to sharing our strategy. It is part of our commercial arrangements for those sponsorships across the event. And it would significantly put us at a commercial disadvantage.
Ms. Paul Freeman, this is Senate Estimates. This is SBS, which is a public broadcaster. Funded in large part by the taxpayer. Can I please ask what were your flight and accommodation costs along with the two other SBS executives as a start?
Senator, I understand we are government funded, but we are hybrid, government and commercial funded.
It doesn't make you any less accountable, Ms. Payman. You need to answer these questions.
I'm not suggesting we're not accountable, Senator. I'm suggesting that to compete fairly in the commercial landscape. Uh we need to safeguard our ability to be efficient. If I were to share the numbers and of our commercial arrangements with our sponsors who sponsor our event, and we're competing with uh other broadcasters in the ad market, which is increasingly.
Ms. Poffreman, I'm asking about your flight costs, your accommodation costs. The the costs, I'm only at now at this point in time asking about the costs of SBS personnel. I'm sorry. That is you that's a fundamental obligation when you appear before Senate Estimates to share this information.
I understand what you're asking, Senator.
Well, you you are required to answer these questions. They are basic questions that go to your financial expenditure.
Senator, they go to our revenue generating activity as I've outlined. They the um the client event that we're talking about is part of our commercial arrangements for the sponsorship for the World Cup of our key sponsors. And so to disclose how we do our revenue generating activities would be challenging. Ms.
Pofferman, I'm asking for your and the other two executives. Your total costs, flights, accommodation, and incidentals, please. How many days you were there? Did you fly business class? I assume you did. Could you please detail those costs?
I'm happy to take that away and come back to you with what I can provide. I can tell you we were there for eight days and attended three events. I can tell you those events were general admission, fee for World Cup events, of course, and I'm happy to take away and answer your other questions.
I I have actually previously asked you about these costs, and so I don't think it's acceptable that you've come to Senate estimates today and not prepared to answer these questions, which you've all you're already on notice that I was seeking this information.
I understand that, Senator. I'm saying for us to disclose our commercial activities puts us at a disadvantage in a market that's so competitive. I'm happy to take that away and look at what we can provide for you. It is part of our sponsorship activities. It is underwritten by the sponsorship activity from our clients. That money allows us to invest in activities like the fee for the economy.
Well, where you put your sorry, where you put your line items as to your own travel costs is a matter a matter for you. I mean, you can say that you can offset it in any number of ways. But equally you could there's an argument that this is offset through taxpayers' funds, but it doesn't really matter because what matters is that you are accountable to the Parliament and to this committee for your expenditure and operations. Uh do you are you able to ask someone in your team to call those numbers up?
Senator Alton. Take that away and come back to you on notice. We are, of course, accountable. We are aware of that accountability. We have tabled our annual report and we you know acquit our disclosure obligations. However, we are a third commercially funded. The ad landscape is acutely competitive, and our ability to compete requires us to be uh cautious with our commercial strategy and revenue generating activities.
I mean I think this is going to going to I think you are digging yourself a hole because there is no justification for you not answering this question. Now I'm not asking about I'm not even asking about the sponsorship arrangements. Who were the sponsors by the way of the World Cup?
Uh Senator, off the top of my head, we had Kia, High Sense, Hungry Jacks, McDonald's, um Bet 365, Commonwealth Bank and I can high sense. High sense Kia, yes.
And and how do your travel costs relate to your broader commercial strategy? How did keeping those secret?
Oh, so I think um our revenue uh as a rights broadcaster uh for the Fee for World Cup. Um it is an expectation in market that we can compete alongside other broadcasters. It is uh commonplace for clients who help uh through their sponsorship activities fund the event and allow us to put it on for all Australians free on SBS. Um so you know, the expectation is part of understanding the event, attending the event is a well-trodden path for all broadcasters. We uh I can assure you we spend less uh than other broadcasters with their overseas events.
Okay, so how much is less than other broadcasters? Are we talking are we talking a hundred thousand? Are we talking eighty thousand? Are we talking two hundred thousand?
Senator figure. We take 15 clients um to an event. Uh we have flights, we have to.
No, I'm asking about your flights and accommodation. And uh the SBS costs only, you we're talking 20,000. Did you fly business class?
Senator, we did fly business class.
Um I'm not taking issue with you going to the United States for this event. I mean, you at all. And and you've taken only a small team. Personally, I I don't think that that's unreasonable whatsoever, but I I think it's most unreasonable not to answer these questions.
Well, Senator, I I appreciate that's your position. We are competing.
It's the rules of the Senate, Ms. Paul Friend.
And I understand that. I'm saying to share commercial information, which is part of our sponsorship arrangements would disadvantage our ability to be competitive.
Uh all right, well, look, I'm going to um I've said I'm very concerned about the position you've taken. I'm going to seek some further advice about this and then consider my options. But uh I would ask you to go away and seek some advice on this. Because I don't think that this is appropriate. Uh what was the total uh cost to SBS of sponsoring of hosting the the FIFA World Cup?
Sorry, Senator, the question in terms of broadcasting the FIFA World Force.
Yes, yeah, what were the broadcasting costs and other costs?
It's it's a similar answer, Senator. Did you disclose that would uh infer what the rights cost for an event of that nature is as you can appreciate sports rights is really competitive. Um it is an anchor in many schedules of other broadcasters as well as um tech platforms and SWOD players who now competing for broadcast rights, so to share the cost of hosting and airing the FIFA World Cup would put us at a commercial disadvantage.
I've got this the Secretary's very helpfully give me the rules for estimates. So the only uh way, Ms. Paul Friman, that you can decline to answer that question is to take a public interest immunity claim. Is that what you're doing? No, Senator intending to do.
As I said, I'll take it on notice and come back to you and see what I can provide.
Well, this is as I say, the second time you've taken this on notice. Senator, I think I would ask that you come back to us promptly, not um within the next day or so as soon as you possibly can. I mean you've been on notice for many months about this. Uh and I look forward to getting those responses, fulsome responses as as soon as possible.
Happy to take that on notice.