Senate Environment and Communications Legislation Committee [Part 2], , 1:26:19 to 1:41:00
Senator Thorpe questions the delay in First Nations-led cultural flows planning grants and the management of Aboriginal water entitlements.
Topics: First Nations, Water management, Grants administration
Speakers: Senator Lidia Thorpe, Sheryl Hedges, Hon Murray Watt, Unknown Speaker
>> Um I'll talk about the stolen water on stolen land. Uh, in 2023, as a restoring our rivers bill passed, your government committed $20 million for a first nation centered and led cultural flows planning program. So, some rations, grant decisions for this purpose have just been published in August for this year, and this has been three years in the making. So, what why the delay? I might
get the officials to talk about the detail of that program. Senator
>> Senator one Cheryl Hedges I'm a waban a original woman very proud and head up the first nations water branch in the department. So it was announced in 2023 but we took the time to engage and consult with basin nations about the types of things that they would like to see being available through that cultural flows program and to set the parameters within the grand operating guidelines.
That's great. So, are the grants resourcing every nation in the basis?
>> No, only those that were um able to apply at that time. But one of the things that we are doing at the moment is producing a series of toolkit measures. So, for those nations who weren't yet ready or able to apply at the time that they will be given resources to be able to do the same type of work.
>> So, which nations have not been funded?
There's been over 50 nations that have in the basin. Um I could provide a list on notice about who they are. Um and that would then let you know which ones
>> So why have some nations been selected to progress their aspirations and and not others?
This grant program was a non-competitive grant, which meant that any uh nation that applied for the grant wasn't competing against another. As long as they met the the guideline requirements, then they would they would receive the
>> So $19 million of the allocated $20 million.
>> Yeah, about 19.4.
>> So why is there a $1 million shortfall?
uh only those 50 nations applied and there was a limit of 300,000 up to 300,000 per nation. Not all nations applied for 300,000. They applied for funding based on the work that they wanted to undertake through that grant program. And so there is that remainder of the 600,000 from that 20 million
>> Um the grants are just for a 2-year time frame. Will you commit to I suppose it's for the minister um ongoing funding for basin first nations and their respective uh their representative bodies to engage on water related matters as proposed by Mildrun the Murray Darling Conservation
subject to future budget decisions but certainly as a principle we want to continue lifting first nations engagement in these issues.
so once projects are completed, how will you ensure cultural flows are delivered so that water can actually reach the rivers and first people's communities that need it?
>> I can answer that senator. So we also have in the Mara Darling Basin the aiginal water entitlements program and that's that $und00 million program where we are purchasing water across the basin. um that water stays within the consumptive pool and we're in the process of undertaking further consultation on the enduring holding model for that $100 million worth of water entitlements. Uh whilst we're not determining how that body will implement or manage its water portfolio, one of the things that we would hope would happen is that those folks and nations that have uh put their cultural flows plans together would part be part of that process for allocating or um assessing that $und00 million worth of of water entitlements. So we see a link between the two.
One of the grantees receiving the highest amount granted with 2.4 4 million is first nature group proprietary limited. >> Um the first people's own environmental consultancy appointed by eight participating nations to coordinate the grant on their behalf. Seven of these nations do not have access to any of the grant funding intended to support them. You know this, Steve?
>> I do.
>> To develop their cultural flows management plans during the seven months since the grant commenced. So you obviously know about the first first nature group. Um are you aware that they u that they changed key delivery arrangements with consultation and is withholding grant funding and no longer communicates with these seven nations.
So we have been approached by those seven n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n n nations separately and they've also approached the um grants hub who are the contractors on behalf of the commonwealth with first n first nature's group FNG and so um because we are not the contractors we are reliant upon the grants hub to be that um investigator and liaison with FNG about the matters that have been raised by the seven out of the eight groups and uh I know that the grants hub has written out to FNG requesting certain responses to the allegations that have been put forward. So, we're in the process now of the due diligence assessment going through from the grants hub to uh consider what has been raised through those allegations.
so I'm aware that formal communications requesting an expenditure freeze an establishment of an alternative delivery mechanism through noation replaying an existing contract with a new one in consultation with the department and business grants hub have not yielded any resolution. Can you can you tell me why and what are you doing to address this?
>> So the business hub grants hub will look at various ways in which uh grants can proceed through that due diligence assessment process that they're undertaking. Novation is one of the pathways. There's some um voluntary processes that can be undertaken. But in all of this, uh, FNG is afforded the right to respond to questions, um, from that contractual relationship process. And so that's the process that's going through now. And so it' be premature to sort of really, um, assume what the outcome of that's going to be because it's current.
>> So first nation, first nature group has not responded to the request for
I I think
>> or communicated in any way with the nations and business grants hub has not provided any advice on next steps. The department has stated that it cannot become involved in the contractual relationship between business grant hub and first nature group. The result is a continuing stalemate with nothing happening to address this governance failure while these nations who whose work the grant was established to support remain unable to access funding or progress for the project. Do you agree that this is not in line with the principle of free prior and informed consent? You would know that. I would
know about FPIC and I encourage that all the time, Senator, as as do you. Uh look, I really want to acknowledge that there is a deep sense of frustration with the process at the moment because it does take time. But I I am encouraging that um and you and who you're representing um who's raised this with you is that we do need to go through that due diligence assessment process because at the end of the day we'll get a better outcome than shortcutting processes and and I do again acknowledge that it is frustrating for those seven nations very much so.
Minister, on 5th of October 2026, a consortium of these seven basin first nations wrote to you directly about these issues and requested a meeting by 14th of October. Have you responded to that letter and have you met with them? If not, why not?
>> Um, I don't recall having seen that letter myself. Uh, and I don't recall having replied to it. Um, many of the letters that I receive are replied to by someone other than me. I receive a lot I don't believe I've met any group about this specific issue. Um, I heard you refer to Mildrid a little earlier and as you probably know, I did meet with Mildred uh some time ago. um not necessarily about this specific issue, but um I'll ask my staff to see where that um correspondence is up to.
>> Great. And would you meet with them?
>> Um look, I'd want to understand exactly what the issue is first. Um but I'll certainly ensure that whether it be me or another appropriate person meets with them.
>> I just said what the issue was.
>> I know I've and I've heard I' I've heard your description of it. I'd like to get some advice on that as well. Um, again, I try to meet everyone I possibly can, but there's there's more people that seek a meeting with me than I can possibly meet myself.
>> These are black fellas. These are people of the land, of the water.
>> I meet with First Nations people pretty regularly.
>> I know who you meet with.
>> well, I do meet with First Nations people.
>> I know who you meet with.
>> And I've met with Mildred.
>> I know he's given you the bad.
>> I met with you recently. I met with you recently
>> in Okay, let's talk about Japarang You're going to protect those >> ancient ancient birthing trees over 800 years old. Older than the colony itself.
>> This is the one. Uh I'm not having a go here. This is the one your family's
>> That's Japarang. Yeah, that's my bloodline connection. And we've been fighting a road being widened. that takes 6 minutes off the freight trucks that drive really fast and they need to wipe out a very sacred women's area. We've put a section 18 in. Um so just wondering where that's at cuz people have been arrested. We had 40 >> um riot cop cars rock up last week. They've they've um arrested Japarang women, mothers, grandmothers. uh quite violent. So this has been going on for years, years, 10 years. The eight years.
>> Yeah. That um hap when we get to the next outcome and with the EPA, they would be better placed to >> tell you what's been done about that particular issue because they're the regulator there. This this is not this is the water people uh within the department. Um but happy to get the
>> sent to you though.
>> Say again.
>> It's being sent to you though. But yes, I understand. I understand. >> Um okay. Um in 2023 your government also committed 60 million for the ainal water entitlements program because I was in Allowing you got a vote from me to get that money for my people. And this was allowing First Nations in the Murray Darling Basin to purchase water entitlements for self-determined use. How much water is owned? I mean, it's all ours stolen, but how much water is owned from that the colonies allowing us to have by First Nations people as a result of this this 100 million so far?
I'll I'll get the officials to give you the exact figure, but um it's not as much as it should be would also be my
>> Well, you're the minister
>> and that's why we're funding this and that's why we're funding this program. But why don't >> why don't I get Miss Hedges to give you the answer.
>> So, Senator, as of the 18th of September, we've exchanged 50 contracts for 21.5 gigs megs, I should say. Not not gigs, that would be extraordinary. Um and that's to about 80 just shy of $84 million worth. Um we're on track by the end of the year December to have committed or contracted up to that $und00 million amount. At the moment it's held by the Commonwealth. Uh but we are working it under an interim governance arrangement which is independent first nations people from the basin who've been appointed in an advisory role and the directorate role to make that those commercial decisions and to have those policies in place that are um culturally le policies for how that water is purchased
>> Yeah. Just one just one more. So who manages the water that's been purchased and what proportion of the water purchased by first nation for first nations is being managed by first
>> So um it's held by the commonwealth at the moment but we have a directorate in place which has um three directors on it and two associate directors in a mentoring role. Um four of those are independently uh recruited from Basin First Nations to do the the directorate role. I'm the chair of that because of the fiduciary requirements from the Commonwealth perspective. Um but when we're making those directorate positions and do it with a fiduciary hat on and so um at the moment we hold that uh at some stage we will be looking to work towards a trading policy for that because part of the portfolio purchases was based on connectivity and wealth creation and that will be managed until such time as the enduring model um is established and held by first nations
>> Thank you.