Senate Environment and Communications Legislation Committee [Part 2], , 2:12:54 to 2:25:55
The Minister and EPA officials address the backlog of housing project approvals and the primary causes for delays in environmental assessments.
Topics: EPBC Act, Infrastructure, Land management
Speakers: Hon Murray Watt, Senator Andrew Bragg, Mr. Tony Chappel, John Bradley, Unknown Speaker, Interjection
>> Yes, you are. Uh on the on that note uh we are able to move on and excuse the officials from outcome 4 and the various authorities that appear before us. Uh we thank you for your appearance here today and the work that goes into preparing for Senate estimates and giving evidence at estimates. We now welcome officials um including the minister for outcome if you would come to the table please that is conserve, protect and sustainably manage our natural resources including through a nature positive approach. protect and conserve our natural and cultural heritage, reduce and regulate the use of pollutants and hazardous substances, and take a leadership role on these issues internationally. Program 2.1, conserve, protect, sustainably manage, and restore Australia's natural environment. Program 2.2, protect Australia's cultural, historic, and First Nations heritage. And program 2.3, accelerate the transition to a circular economy while safely managing pollutants and hazardous substances. I'm
>> Can I Can I make a suggestion, chair, in the interest of time? Would it be useful to have >> I know we've got the National EPA listed to come next. >> Would it be useful to have them up now because there will be some questions that will need to go to the department some of the EPA that might just help us.
>> I think I think that does make sense, Minister. So,
>> make sure they're around.
>> We will also invite up officials from the National Environmental Protection Authority >> or at least um invite them to be present in the room as needed to come to the
table. maybe in a separate room, but we'll get them up now.
>> That's a good Yeah, thank you, Minister. >> now while this is happening, Minister and Secretary, can I just confirm with you that you don't have an opening statement? >> No. >> No chair.
>> No. I know that I know the um >> National CE had a statement given us the first appearance. Um he can maybe deliver that when he arrives.
>> Yes.
>> Y
>> Hello, Senator Flicky. How are you? >> Oh, good.
But but feel free to kick off and if there's EPA issues, we can come back to them while they're arriving.
>> Sure. Uh I think that's a good idea. Senator Bre,
>> Always happen to take EBC questions.
>> Okay, good. So you administer this act
>> I do.
which enforces some of the components.
>> Correct. That's one of their roles. Yes.
responsible minister for the overall
act. I >> I am.
housing and getting housing approved is
>> It is.
>> Okay. So you might recall after the
>> Yep.
>> You might recall that
>> I was there for part of
>> you were there very democratic process. It was
>> it was
>> u very democratic to have it in the cabinet room. It fits about 20 people. Uh but I think as part of that he said at the time that there was 26,000 homes caught up in EPBC act.
>> Yep.
>> You remember that?
>> I do.
>> Yep. Now um how many caught up in it
>> Uh so I think I remember at the last estimates um saying to you that we had already surpassed that 26,000.
>> so you got more now.
>> Hang on. So I'm going to I'm not going to get this figure exactly right, but as of the last estimates, my recollection is that we had cleared in the order of 42,000. So well above the 26,000. >> Yeah. >> Of course, you know, every day while we clear approvals, we also get new referrals. >> So how many you got gummed up in there? Now >> I'll give you the figures that we've got Um just bear with me.
>> We just want to know how many you got gummed up in there now.
>> So
>> gummed up, banged up, whatever.
>> Well, that that's your description.
>> Well, that's what it is.
>> Um >> So I'll give you a couple of Didn't take you long to get to your
buzzwords. Oh, it's a good pogmire.
>> Um the So, I'll give you a couple of different figures. >> Um since May 2022, when our government was first elected, 111 housing projects have been approved, which involves 85,000 homes. Since the commencement of the national EPA on the 1st of July this year, 17 housing projects have been approved, which equates to 6,585 homes. Um, we are approving 43% of housing projects in as little as 4 to 6 weeks. And to come to the numbers you were asking about. >> Yeah. >> As at the 23rd of October this year, >> um there are 15,727 homes or 28 housing projects that are if you like with the national EPA as in the ball is in their court. um they're either awaiting approval decision, awaiting a referral decision, or more generally with the EPA for review. There are there are an additional 52,653 homes or 52 projects that are with the proponent. >> correct that are with the proponent um progressing the assessment. So they are completing their obligations if you like to undertake surveys or whatever it is that they need to do. >> uh in the system >> it's about 68,000 of which 52,653 are with the proponent rather than the EPA and around 15 15,727
>> uh with the EPA. So you got 68,000 in
>> Well, I think the fairer comparison is to say that there are 15,727 with the EPA.
>> Well, I mean back at the round table the Mr. Charmers said there was 26,000
>> and that's that correct. more I know that I I knew exactly what you were going to do at this which is why I've got gone to the trouble of getting these figures. That's more, isn't it? >> I mean, if you want to hold the EPA accountable for >> projects that are actually with the proponent, then that's a matter for you. I think the fairer comparison to make is the projects that are actually with the
and [snorts] I say to you, Minister, um I want to build a house where a parrot flew over a block of land in 1971. Um and you do a bit bit of paperwork and you say, "I want you to go and do a a process.
>> Well, I know that you like to give the example of a parrot that flew over a block of land in 1971. I think there's a lot of I think you'd find that that is not what the EPA is normally dealing with.
>> Well, I think I think that's a
example.
>> Pick a shovel out and dig into it.
>> Um, so um the um I mean there are there are proponents who do a really good job of providing the information that they're required to in a very timely fashion. There are other proponents that consistently fail to provide the information that they're required to provide. I hardly think it's fair to blame the EPA for that.
>> But at the end of the day, you've you've still got 68,000 houses caught up in this thing in a housing crisis. It's a lot of homes. It looks like we're going in the wrong direction here.
>> Well, you might like to talk to the proponents who are sitting on 52,650.
>> It's the industry's fault that the regulation is so cumbersome.
>> I don't I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is I've already just said there are some proponents who do a really good job and there are some who do a terrible
job. >> Most of them are ins snalled. You said only 15,000 are with you and the rest of with the industry.
>> Yep.
>> All right. So what's the main reason why they can't get approvals?
>> Well, the EPA might be in a better position to um answer that.
>> You don't know what the main reason is?
>> Well, there why don't I let the new CEO who hasn't had a chance statement to to
>> But you administer this act. Sure. You know the main reason why houses can't get approved. You 68,000 in there.
>> Well, there because there are Okay, where to begin? There there are there environmental significance that we regulate in in in each particular um housing application. Uh there may be different threatened species um who are impacted or potentially impacted by a housing development. Um there might be in a particular housing development an impact on the Great Barrier Reef in terms in terms of runoff in terms of clearing that.
>> How many houses affected by the Great Barrier Reef?
>> I suspect it be very I suspect it'll be very few but the point is
>> I asked for the main one, not the most random.
>> Well, I'm giving you examples. I said I started with threatened species.
>> Yeah. Which
>> Mr. Bradley might like to ask.
>> Well, you don't know. We'll ask him. Yeah. Okay.
>> Thanks very much for the opportunity.
>> Welcome to Estimates, Mr. Bradley. You're in for a good time. We just want
we just want simp these are simple I'm not a very smart man these are simple questions just trying to get simple
answers >> the other thing sorry Mr. Bradley, there are many housing projects that don't have significant environmental impacts. Most
>> Why are you bunging them up then?
>> We're not. That's that that would be you got 68,000. >> No, no, no, no. I know you're trying to build a narrative here. The problem is
>> it's not a narrative. It's just the
>> No. I said to you earlier that we are approving 43% of housing projects in as little as four to six weeks. What that mean and why that is is that they are deemed to be not a controlled action because they do not significantly impact on one of the matters that we regulate. So 43% of housing projects get a very quick approval. There are others that h are likely to have a significant impact on the environment. They are the ones that require an assessment. And if you'd like to know more about the major reason that they're under assessment, Mr. Bradley,
>> Mr. Bradley can tell us that. We'll be happy.
>> Yeah. Thanks very much. So there there are reasons why projects can take longer to progress through the system.
>> Just the top two.
>> Uh the time frames can be extended for a number of reasons often not within the department's control. So some proponents choose to put their project into the system early while they're still working through some state and territory planning or zoning processes. Some are waiting for suburb infrastructure planning and construction such as the development of roads and water supply uh to be finalized before they progress their assessment. And some are considering a range of offset options. But if I look at the period in the last four years, uh there's been 81,000 homes that have been approved um in that period of time and almost half of those in the last 12 months. So we are through the work that's been done around that housing. Um >> increasing the pace? >> Top two. The top two uh would be uh proponents that put their project into the system while they're still working through state and territory planning or zoning processes or they're waiting for suburb infrastructure planning and construction. So the kind of head works to support uh the project.
>> Okay, that sounds like a paperwork
Oh, in some cases it's an important part of enabling the the housing which is the um services that need to support um housing projects like roads and water supply. Okay. And the proponent is often uh working through um those state level uh planning uh programs and securing um the headworks with uh major utility providers.
>> Okay. Um do you publish any of your decisions minister that you make under
this act? Well, a I make very few approval decisions that um the overwhelming and I mean over 90% of approval decisions are made by a delegate.
>> You delegate?
>> Yeah. So that that's been custom and practice from ministers.
>> Are they published?
>> Yes. So all I think the the EPA can correct me if I get this wrong, but to my knowledge every approval decision that is made whether it be by the minister of the day or now the EPA is published. Okay. Is that if that's not
correct and the decisions are fine. So
you publish your decision. So but why don't you publish yours?
>> I do. It's just that I for example I made I made the decision around the Northwest Shelf project last year.
>> Yeah. I remember
>> uh I haven't made many others uh since then. the as I say for many years now well over 90% of decisions have been made by the delegate of the minister who which used to be a departmental official but now that we have the EPA it's an EPA official >> and they're all published
>> and how many housing ones have you made