Senate Environment and Communications Legislation Committee [Part 2], , 1:12:32 to 1:20:56
The Commissioner provides details on document production notices issued to TikTok, Meta, and Google regarding age assurance. Discussion focuses on the accuracy of account deactivation statistics and the protection of ongoing investigation integrity.
Topics: Online safety, Orders for documents
Speakers: Senator Sarah Henderson, Julie Inman Grant, Ms. Heidi Snell, Speaker 6, Unknown Speaker, Speaker 1
So you've issued notices production of document notices to which uh organizations
>> uh the five companies that um we announced in March that we are investigating um we have also sent
>> and just could you just for the purposes of these proceedings name those five companies
>> uh Tik Tok, Snap, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube. Um we've also issued um notices to a number of the uh third party age assurance providers that they are using um including uh KD and Yoti. We've also um issued notices to the app stores including Google Play and uh the Apple iTunes store. Both of them as you would recall have um recently issued age range APIs which provides the companies with specific signals and we want to understand uh you know what kind of um contractual arrangements there might be there or um you know across the board. Commissioner
on notice. Could we have a full list of uh all those companies to which you have issued notices and could we also please have copies of the notices and any responses you've received
>> as as we've discussed be before um these are investigation processes that are underway and we need to protect the integrity of our investigation. So, in considering what we can provide in response to the question on notice, we'll consider whether or not we need to make a public interest immunity claim over that material.
>> All right. Thank you very much. I the call. >> Just just a couple just a final couple very quick ones. Um, Commissioner, as you know, uh, I've raised ongoing concerns about the public statements of both the prime minister and the communications minister as to the number of social media accounts that have been uh, shut down, discontinued, uh, suspended. It started off at 4.7 million. It's now the latest declaration from the prime minister. It's over 6 million. I've raised concerns that the prime minister and the communications minister continue to mislead Australians in relation to this figure because as I have ascertained uh and as I've said very openly and at least several million of that total relates to Google accounts which have nothing to do with YouTube. their Google accounts because YouTube does not have a separate account and so what I'm so for instance if you want to have a Gmail you need a Google account and I am concerned that those numbers are com seriously inflated because of the way in which the data has been collected and it's misrepresenting to Australians uh the number of accounts that have actually being closed down. >> Uh uh can you please uh update the committee on that issue? It is a burning issue. I'm not going to give up on it, Commissioner, and I would like and ask that you be transparent about those
numbers, please. Uh well, we provided a great deal of transparency. I I believe in the the in camera session and um you know you're right in saying that that that that YouTube is anom anomalous in terms of how they capture um accounts or deactivations >> [clears throat] >> um because of the nature of of goo Google accounts and I do think we account for those in in terms of the lexicon that we use. we say you know removed or deactivated because that is the terminology the companies provided
several million of these accounts have got nothing to do with social media accounts. A Gmail has got nothing to do with a prohibited social media account. So my point is and you did provide and I'm only saying this because you've just given that evidence. You did provide extensive further information in camera and I would be very keen [clears throat] for you to provide that information openly please so we can put this issue to rest because I don't like the fact that the prime minister and the communications minister continue to use these inflated numbers which mislead Australians.
think on um I think that we have not provided that information publicly on the basis of public interest immunity and that has not been overturned at this point in time.
>> You ever made a public interest immunity claim?
>> Sorry, in relation to the individual numbers for each platform.
>> Have you made a public interest immunity claim
>> when it was originally asked?
>> No, you have not made a public interest I think you had
>> questions on on notice we had from one round of Senate estimates.
>> Mr. Fleming, um
we'll check.
>> There's not been a matter that has come to our committee. You've indicated that you did not want to answer the question earlier because it was a matter under investigation. >> Yes. So I would ask you commissioner in your final estimates if you could please appraise this committee of the breakdown of those numbers so we can understand. We know there's 550,000 Facebook accounts. I'm just rattling them off from the top of slightly less than that for Instagram. The numbers don't add up and I would ask that you provide a breakdown as you did
Uh I don't have those numbers in front
of me. We'll have to take that taken on notice because we don't have those numbers here. But Senator, what what I can say is it's not correct to say that whatever the number of Google accounts are not related to social media. The steps that Google took was to prevent Google accounts for underage users from being able to access YouTube. So it was directly relevant to the fact that YouTube is an age restricted social media platform.
>> No, that's not correct, Miss Nellum. We've had I'm sorry. It's very difficult to have this conversation when we've had further we've had extensive evidence in camera. So the number of deactivated accounts included young children who just had a Gmail account and they were
>> What was deactivated was their access to YouTube. account wasn't deactivated or their overall Google account wasn't deactivated, their ability to access YouTube was prevented.
>> Yes, but that number was included in the overall figure including >> because those young people are no longer
able to access YouTube.
>> It's prevented from having and holding an account and that's
and so there was several million young Australians who held a Google account because they were just using Google for Gmail. And as we know, you don't need to log in to YouTube to watch YouTube. So, uh, it's actually very hard.
>> That was a feature of of the bill that you could watch those in a logged out.
>> I appreciate that. >> Anyway, uh, you've taken that on notice. I would really be grateful if we could finalize this matter and if you could provide the committee with the same information you provided in camera, we would be most grateful and I certainly would be most grateful.
>> Thank you. Um Senator Roberts, thank you