Senate Education and Employment Legislation Committee, , 3:17:54 to 3:26:38
Officials provide data on the number of office holders removed from the CFMEU. Senators raise concerns about individuals resigning voluntarily to move to other unions, potentially evading the 'removed persons' framework and exporting cultural issues to other sectors.
Topics: Workplace relations, Integrity
Speakers: Senator Maria Kovacic, Sarah Godden, Greg Manning, David Cains, Senator Marielle Smith
Okay. Um are you able to tell us how many people have been removed, expelled, suspended or disqualified under the scheme? Um do you keep track of when each of those bans expire?
I think that I mean certainly the administrator sets out those numbers for memory in his uh in their six-monthly report to Parliament. And so I think the latest report that was tabled in 1st of October for memory or early October has those numbers, but Ms. God and Mr. Cades might be able to keep the numbers from that.
So, Senator, the scheme of administration removed over 200 office holders from their positions in the union. Um we also have advice from the administration that um more than 50 per cent of the 320 employees of the division uh have left the union for various reasons since the administration commenced. So some uh for a range of reasons, dismissals, uh redundancies, other types of departures and so on, resignations.
And and and in the legislation in the scheme establish essentially a removed persons framework whereby anyone who's removed as a result of the administration scheme there's restrictions on them being a candidate for or appointed to an office in another registered organisation being employed or engaged in by registered organisation or being a bargaining representative and then allows them to make application uh in relation to that um in relation to any of those particular functions, if they should seek employment, for example, in another union.
But uh my understanding is there are individuals who have left the CFMEU voluntarily who may have otherwise been removed, so they leave before they become removed persons, and then they appear in other unions like the ETU, and there is a significant prevalence. Of that occurring right now. So what can we do to manage that? So if you've got someone that's about to be removed from the CFMEU, and let's just say they move to the ETU, is that then left alone? Is that now the ETU's problem to start from the beginning again, or is there some kind of a um you know disclosure or a directive from the CFM EU administrator to the ETU that says we were about to remove this person be careful?
We're certainly not aware of uh communication between well, we just wouldn't be aware of routine communication between the administrator and other unions. That would be a matter for the administrator is um as the person running the CFMEU senator. Um Mr. Manning uh run you through the removed uh person's framework. There's also the ability of the administrator to commence disciplinary proceedings to consider expelling uh individuals from the union which would have uh certain impacts under their rules and potentially under other unions' rules as well, and we are aware that the administrator has commenced a range of disciplinary proceedings in relation to certain individuals.
Yeah, I guess my concern is, and and this is what why I'm asking the questions to the department if there is now a clear open door or loophole for individuals to avoid um becoming a disqualified person and effectively you know changing their shirt and going somewhere else and evading um that discipline from the administrator. And I think it does two things. Number one, um it impacts the administrator's ability to do his job effectively, and number two, it exports the problems elsewhere. And some of those that I'm aware of have moved from the VicTaz division um to the West Australian division, some to the New South Wales division. So we have this challenge where on the numbers alone, all appearances suggest this is looking really good. Um, but really um the individuals that are a problem have moved elsewhere into the union infrastructure.
But if someone moved from the Victorian Tasmania Division to the Western Australian division or the New South Wales Division, that's that'd still be in the CFMEU.
No, into another union.
Oh, in to another union. But yeah, because you say, I mean, the discussions between the unions might alert them to that,
and we don't have any visibility with the No, but the question I'm asking is do you have a concern in relation to that as to the effectiveness of the legislation in relation to um those you know, removed per a potential removed person finding a way um around the legislation?
I mean obviously we've got an interest of making sure the the RAG works as well as it can. Uh I I would come back to Ms. Godin's com early comments about the legal challenge. There is a there is a balance in the legislation between what what is pretty big pretty big action taken in relation to people's employment and the administration of the union and what was challenged in the High Court in relation to the implied freedom of people to um participate in political communication, etc. Uh pleasingly the the legislation was upheld as valid uh by a majority, but it's still quite a delicately balanced thing. And they're the type of considerations we'd be taking into account in any advice we gave to government about about it.
Sure. Have you have you given any account on uh sorry, any advice to government in relation to uh potential loopholes for people to evade becoming a disqualified person?
Senator, can I just come in there and just also um point out that the scheme of administration does provide for people to become removed persons, even if they leave employment voluntarily? Uh so if the administrator forms the opinion that they may have otherwise been uh action taken for their position to be terminated or or cease to be employed, however you want to put it, um, there is a potential for them to still become a removed person despite them leaving of their own accord.
Do you have any data on how many times that's occurred?
I think if they take that on notes, they're not uh I don't recall that in the most recent report.
I I think we'll just take that on notice to uh confirm that.
Sure. Do you have any do you have a rough idea if it's occurred at all? And I won't hold you to it. I'm just curious.
Uh certainly uh we had discussions with the general manager of the Fair Work Commission and the Fairwork Ombudsman and also the administration quite early on in relation to the time period of one July to 23 August 2024. Um I believe that there was some interaction between the regulators and the administration in relation to who might be covered, but we'll just take on notice to uh confirm that mechanism and also if we have any more information in relation to that in the department. I'm sorry, that was uh a little while ago now. I don't think we ever got a a list or a number of people, but we certainly did uh facilitate those discussions and were a part of some of them.
Thank you. If you could also provide for me on notice um a schedule of the earliest dates on um which each of the removed persons could actually return. I'm assuming you're keeping a register of those.
For removed persons, Senator, they need to obtain a fit and proper person certificate in order to return. So the earliest date is the date on which they obtain that certificate. Um and certainly we're aware of a number of union officials who have successfully uh obtained that certificate, and we can take that on notice.
If you could provide a schedule, I'm assuming you have a schedule of the date when individuals were banned, disqualified, suspended.
We could work with the Fairwork Commission to work out if which removed persons have made applications.
We would have been looking at it. And when they're successful.
Perfect. Okay, thank you. I've got a couple more before I rotate to Senator Hugh.
Oh no, we'll be rotating.
Oh, delay delay apologies. How much more time have I got?
Um well, we've been with the uh opposition for uh over an hour now, so I'll probably pass to Senator Sheldon for a few moments, and then I'm happy to come back.
We've got a few more as well.