Senate Education and Employment Legislation Committee, , 2:00:08 to 2:05:01
Discussion on the link between school funding levels and student performance in PISA assessments, focusing on evidence-based teaching and pedagogy.
Topics: Education, Government spending
Speakers: Senator Matt O'Sullivan, Mr. Tony Cook, Senator Marielle Smith
>> Thank you, Senator. Um, Senator O. Sullivan. Uh, over to you. We're breaking at uh 11.
>> Okay, great. Thank you. Uh, before I move on, I just from this issue of PISA and and funding. Um, I've been just reflecting on the evidence that we've heard and secretary, uh, I want to take you back to your evidence where you said that it's it's, um, when I asked why performance is so poor when school funding is so high. Uh and then you said that it's you specifically pointed to a distinction that while there's been increase of funding over the last 13 years, it's it's you but none of those past funding agreements had specifically had uh requirements around explicit teaching phonics and small groupoup work whereas the current ones do. You also mentioned changes to the maths curriculum. So am I right that the very clear implication from from what you're saying is that funding while it's important uh those other matters of being explicit about the expectations around explicit instruction phonics and and and the and the other things are are actually super important to uh to be able to lift the performance. And it's not just a question of funding that we need changes to pedagogy, the curriculum and it's it's not just more money. Is that is that fair? Have I understood your evidence?
>> Look, I think Sandra, I'll say both both are important. Obviously, you need to have the funding to provide small group because that requires additional teachers. So you actually need additional funding to actually enable us or sorry enable teachers uh to to develop programs in their schools around things like small group teaching. Um the evidence is just as important. So there's no point bringing together a small group of students if you don't actually know how to teach them explicitly around the issues around phonics and things like that. So together those things are really important. Um uh I will I will say I noted your point back your point about poor performance. I will say that Australia still is one of the highest performing countries in the world around PISA as well. We're still generally around the top 10 out of the 80 or so countries that participate in in PISA. Um obviously as a secretary of the education department I want to see our performance improve. Absolutely. >> but it's a combination. Great to be number one. I love that idea. Um but it is a combination of the funding that's needed to implement the reforms. Those reforms are now very explicit in our agreements and those things together. My strong view and the evidence is starting to show that in the early days that that will improve student outcomes.
>> Yeah, I guess you know we've just had over over a decade now we've had this constant focus on funding and of course funding is important. Um and the and the political debate often centers around that. Uh but but I'm pleased to hear that we are moving beyond that just just that element of it and looking at performance around pedagogy around those explicit instructions and and and other things. Um and because you know that ultimately that's what is going to really substantially make the difference. You can't just you can throw all the money you like at a problem, but unless you've got the design right and the makeup of it right, we're just not going to lift the standards and continue and see improvements.
>> And Minister Clare has been absolutely clear on that. I mean, if we just go back a little bit, of course, you know, the original GSKY 2011 2012 set a standard, a schooling resourcing standard, as you know, for all schools. Over the last decade, successive governments have put additional money in to reach that standard. As you know, non-government schools reached that standard several years ago. Government schools have yet to reach that standard. The better fair schools agreement that's now been signed and bil states and territories will enable every school in Australia, government and non-government, to reach the standard that was set >> 16 15 years ago. So that's what the additional money is about, actually setting the standard that was agreed a decade or so ago. But what we have fine-tuned or focused on particularly over the last couple of years is with that money, how is it best spent? It's best spent on evidence-based teaching and learning, best spent on the things that, you know, you and I and >> uh all teachers, I'm assuming in Australia would agree, will actually support students to be able to learn the best they can.