Senate Education and Employment Legislation Committee [Part 2], , 2:14:43 to 2:25:45
The committee scrutinizes a security incident involving an ANU delegation in China and the subsequent termination of a partnership with Shandong University.
Topics: Education, National security
Speakers: Senator Paul Scarr, Professor Joan Leach, Unknown Speaker, Ms Dominique Lowe, Speaker 2, Interjection
>> Okay. I'll go very quick if I can. So congratulations um on the work that you're doing and I um if Senator Pox's compliment uh complimentary that uh it means a lot cuz I know he's well connected with the community in CRA. So uh I acknowledge that and that 96% figure is uh quite outstanding in ch in terms of uh successful job placements I suspect you are going to anticipate the first question I'm going to ask you. Uh, I'll be impressed if you do. Uh, has, uh, the A&U successfully managed to get its, um, whole of organization gender-based violence prevention response plan signed off by, uh, the genderbased uh, violence regulator.
>> Um, yes, Senator.
>> Thank you. That's all I need to know. So people can work the process of elimination as to uh who hasn't. Excellent. Uh the Australian newspaper reported in August that Chinese police had confiscated the passports of AU academics and PhD students during a May 2024 visit. Uh what do you know or does anyone at the table know what the circumstances of that case was and what steps are you took in response? Uh we do
Senator and we do think the reporting was a exaggerated or a misrepresentation but in terms of the detail I might ask our provos to answer that question.
>> Thank you.
>> Thank you Senator uh John Lee Shan acting provos and senior vice president at the A&U. Um that episode um I think it was um distressing for colleagues who um perhaps do not travel in China often. Um it was a routine check as I understand it of uh the hotel where um colleagues were staying. Uh and there was a confusion uh language difficulties between uh staff and the um uh the officials that were coming to uh check the passport. So there were some moments of confusion um but colleagues from the university uh came to assist. Um passports were checked and returned to
colleagues. Okay. Um, in a previous life, I used to travel to China quite a lot. Uh, and I never came across an episode like that. Um, so it does, uh, it does surprise me, uh, somewhat. Is that the only information you have or was regulatory confusion or confusion on
understand it, yes, there was a a language difficulty uh where um colleagues were um uh their passports were being checked. Um they weren't able to speak across the language barrier. But once um uh colleagues from the um university they were visiting came to uh uh assist uh things were clarified rather quickly um and um passports were
just six was it at the hotel that the passports were confiscated?
>> The um local authorities as I understand it uh were coming to check um everyone who was staying at the at the hotel
>> Again I've I never came across that during the many times I traveled to China. Um so again that is uh is is interesting. Uh did you leaz with the um the embassy in China? Did they did they um did they give you any explanation as to what had happened?
>> We did. We uh spoke with embassy um staff. They were super helpful and um they indicated that they thought it was a confusion uh a problem of a a language barrier. Uh and no um no staff were detained. Indeed. Um during this bit of confusion, one member of staff um left their passport with the authorities, was allowed to go and teach a class that they had to teach um and was then given their passport upon return.
>> Okay. So, how long did >> orderly? How how long did the authorities have the passport?
>> Uh I think for the group in the building, not for very long at all. It might have been a matter of an hour while things were being um uh uh worked out. I'm not I'm not quite sure of the exact period of time. And for that one member of staff, uh the passport was returned to them uh the next day.
>> Okay. And how many people were on this delegation? How many people were impacted?
>> So um
>> even if you've got the ballpark figure,
>> ballpark figure, I would say six people.
>> Okay. Uh do you have any uh did you get anything from the embassy confirming uh an explanation or have you got any document you could potentially table with us take it on notice >> uh just to corroborate? >> Yep. I'll take that on from say the embassy's perspective that this is this is the reason for it and and additional things shouldn't be read into it. Is that possible for you to take that on notice?
>> I'll take that on notice. Thank you.
>> Okay. Uh and just what was the purpose of that particular visit uh where this occurred? What was the purpose of the visit and what areas or of expertise or professions or uh learning were members of the delegation in?
>> So these were colleagues um going for I believe a two week intensive teaching period
>> in relation to discipline. I believe
this was the biological sciences um and the chemical sciences uh and perhaps mathematics. Um again can I take that on notice to give you the accurate um identification of those disciplinary
>> Okay. And which university were they visiting?
>> Uh I believe that was um Shandonghai University.
And the partnership with Shandong University continued after this episode.
>> So the partnership um was um at that point with Shandong University in Teach Out. Um and so
>> sorry it was
>> uh it was coming to an end,
>> right?
>> Uh and so um uh it did continue after that uh episode but um that that was in TAP period.
>> Okay. And that was it was coming to an end in accordance with its terms, its written terms.
>> That is correct.
>> It didn't have any possibility for renewal.
>> Uh it may it may have had
>> Can you have a look at that and perhaps come back on notice? And so I'm trying to reconcile that with I thought the foreign minister had actually cancelled the partnership earlier this year. So I'm I'm trying to work out >> to reconcile. It was coming to an end with the foreign minister's canceled it.
>> Yes. So um that is true. The foreign minister um has asked us to end uh that agreement and we are in full compliance with that. Um the
>> well sorry sorry if if if it was coming to an end and it ended in accordance with its terms. That's different from a cancellation isn't it?
>> Uh yes I do understand that though. Um the um end of the agreement I believe um was um later in time uh than the um date that the foreign minister um would like us to end the agreement. So we brought that forward to end the agreement early.
>> Okay. So the foreign minister canled the agreement prior to it coming to an end.
>> Yes.
>> What was the reason for that cancellation?
>> That would be a matter for the foreign
>> So you haven't been advised that uh as to the reason for the cancellation. So
as I understand it in broad terms uh the concern is uh about um the nature of the institution um in relation to specific areas or domains of study um and the potential um for example of research collaboration around um dual use technologies.
You didn't receive any indication that there was a connection between the cancellation and that incident where the passports were detained?
>> No. No.
>> Okay. Can you just take on notice any just check if you've got anything else any other communication from government uh from any agency with respect to uh the reason uh for the cancellation? Uh there was a reference to dual use technologies as I understand it. Can you just explain what you mean by that?
>> Uh so the usual um referral of dual use technologies are technologies that can be used um in a um a civilian or um uh a nonwar environment and a technology that could be used in aggressive um uh >> Okay. technologies that can be used for good or for bad.
>> Was did you receive any indication of any concern from the Australian government prior to the cancellation?
>> No, we did not send it in.
>> Okay. Have you if you can on notice uh if you could just check that on notice and if you could also provide on notice details of any similar if you've ever had any other security incidents uh of that nature or something similar >> uh in in in China or potentially elsewhere >> uh involving a new researcher students or employees and a foreign university. Could you take that on notice as well please?
>> I will.
Sorry, last question. Um, in relation to this block, I've got one more block. Um, just the timeline then that this incident occurred when in terms of the the authorities coming and taking the passports.
>> So, I believe this happened in 2024,
>> January, December, first quarter, second quarter.
>> I I would say um second quarter. Um I would have to check to be absolutely
>> Okay. So it was then a year and a half later that the foreign minister cancelled the
>> That's correct.
>> directed a cancellation of the partnership. Correct. Is that correct? >> Okay. And and when was it going to expire in any event?
>> I believe it was going to expire um in uh the uh beginning well uh first semester next year.
>> Next year in 2027
>> 2027 I believe. I will double check that for you, Senator.
>> Uh, if you could >> um Okay, if I can move on to the
>> I want you to break now. So,
>> Oh, I will. Oh, okay.