Senate Economics Legislation Committee, , 2:46:44 to 3:02:12
Questioning covers Corporate Division operations, Freedom of Information management, and APRA leadership appointments.
Topics: Public service staffing, Freedom of information, Integrity
Speakers: James Kelly, Dave Sharma, Katrina Di Marco, Hon Katy Gallagher, Hon Jane Hume, Andrew Bragg, Lisa Darmanin
we'll just we that's okay. Um we'll welcome people back and go straight to Senator Bragg to finish off this session. Over to you Senator. So
>> this is corporate.
>> Yep. Yes.
>> Are you corporate? >> I am corporate senator. Okay, very good. do you what involvement do you have with freedom of information requests?
>> Uh, so freedom of information requests are actually managed by or the area that coordinates those is in our legal division and they're going to appear with Revenue Group.
>> Okay. Well, that has solved that issue. >> So, everything to do with corporate, just so I'm clear because I don't want to get, you know,
>> No, no.
>> I don't want to have an unpleasant experience with estimates. [laughter] >> But, um, >> Oh, no. quite quite like [laughter]
the table
>> 14 hours a day is not
>> well you know it's quite a good opportunity to spend time with colleagues um
>> I don't think you guys need any more of that
>> well you know we like talking to you though it's all good
>> from the outside looking in just saying
>> but we're all parliamentary colleagues that's the great thing about Australia so um I guess then the question is are all the matters to do with corporate now living in another house
>> no so all the matters to do with uh with with corporate reside with me. But I think at the last estimates hearing there's been a restructure of the department since the last estimates hearing. >> They used to be in the same group corporate and legal. Um that's now not the case. So I've got the corporate component but our law division with legal takes over freedom of information.
>> Okay. So FOI issues to do with the commissioning of reports, governance reports and the like all go to legal.
>> Uh this is going to be deeply frustrating for you Senator and I apologize in advance. Like if there's issues around the contracting and the governance that may well be in corporate but in terms of freedom of information and release of documents and those sorts of things that will be an be an issue from the law division.
>> Okay. So in terms of the deote report that was commissioned by a treasury a agency is that something that I can ask you about?
>> Uh I don't think so senator I think given it was commissioned by an agency of the treasury I I would direct you to I suspect that's housing group. Um but if it's about a freedom of information request with respect to that or aspects of freedom of information, you may wish to direct that to revenue and law But if the report itself was commissioned by one of our agencies, it's not a matter for my for for for us in terms of corporate.
>> Okay, I'm done then.
morning corporate around um the ASICH appointment. Obviously, there's been an announcement around the um sorry, not ASICH appointment, APA appointment. There's been announcements around ASICH, but there haven't been around APA, but I do know that Mr. Long and Miss Cole finish on the same around the same month. So, what's the progress on replacement for Miss Cole? I
>> I might have to get back to you on notice about that, Senator Hume, but I think um my colleagues from markets group will be here and they may have more of an update on that. So, we would help manage some process issues, but in terms of the back end of it, that might be markets group, but if you don't mind, we'll we'll take it on notice and see what we can get.
>> Can I ask about the process issues?
>> Uh, I'm I I really I don't have any information on that with me, Senator.
>> Okay. Okay. Is it who is it that decides whether APPA will um uh restructure after a high-profile departure like Miss Coohl's or whether it will be a a direct replacement for her specific role, her enforcer role?
>> Uh Senator, it would be my assumption that that is a matter for the agency, the agency head. So it would be a matter for Mr. Lonsdale.
>> Okay. Is it something that gets discussed with you, Minister? Does the agency head discuss it with you or is it something that you discuss with the agency head whether it's a sort of direct replacement for a particular person in a particular role or whether there is a sort of a more broader restructuring of um of the agency
I'm not aware of those conversations have taken place senator may they may have with the treasurer um but we can take that for you on notice and see if markets group might have an answer
>> okay all right can I just be a little bit cheeky here if legal's gone and corporate's gone and you and answer questions about appointments processes. What's the corporate do?
>> So, Senator, we do have appointments processes with us, but you're asking about the state and so we manage aspects of that process, but you're asking about the organizational operations of that within the within a portfolio that's uh supported by our markets group. You're further asking about where the timelines are for decisions, which are a matter for the minister, but I will check with colleague Senator and try and get you an answer on notice. We handle the process aspect. So once decisions have been made, my appointments team will work through the the cabinet appointments process in a usual way. Um but in terms of some of the aspects that you're talking about, they would more ordinarily be dealt with either by the minister's office or by the markets group.
>> Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Chip. >> Okay. So I think that is it for everyone uh related to the corporate um
department of macro international.
>> I did have one.
>> Oh, you've got one. Sorry. Okay.
>> That's all right. If I could just briefly um this might not be the right place but statement of expectations is that looked after by corporate are you the guardian of
>> no no senator statement of expectations aren't I'm not the guardian of those um they will be but they will be addressed with by so for example in markets group they've got regulators >> in their in their purview who they'll be looking at the statement of expectations um and similarly for other areas who've got regulators within their orbit be more It's it's group by group rather central. >> It's group by group.
>> Okay. I don't need to I'll pursue that group by group then. Thank you.
>> So um thank you very much for coming this morning. >> U and we will welcome representatives from the Department of Treasury Markets Group and invite them to enter the room and join the front of the >> Okay. Do we have everyone ready to go? I think so. We will um welcome to the representatives [clears throat] from Department of Treasury Markets Group. I'm going to go to Senator Sharma for first round of questions. Thanks.
>> Thanks, Chair. Good morning. Um I just wanted to ask about the statement of expectations. Which um regulators does markets group have responsibility for within the Treasury portfolio that would normally be expected to be issued with a statement of expectations? Um
>> so James Kelly, Deputy Secretary Markets Group. Um so um we're responsible for quite a large number of agencies but to kind of go to the more obvious ones they would include >> APA >> Australian competition and consumer commission the payment systems board >> uh which is part of you know sits within the RBA but there's a separate uh statement of expectations in respect of just that particular function. >> Yeah. uh the Australian um finan
>> office of financial management.
>> Uh no not that's um that's in another group I think fiscal group.
>> Okay.
>> Um and the Australian Financial Security Authority uh is another.
>> Okay.
>> So that you know they're the kind of the major ones to which we would do statements of expectations >> and I think all of those currently have a statement.
So my understanding from your website is that um ASICH does not have a an updated statement of expectations. The payment system board at the Reserve Bank does not. Um I'm not sure APA does. I believe the AC does.
So I would say they all have statement of expectations. If your question is more have they been updated very recently that's um some of them are are longer standing some of them are more recent. A C for example has been updated uh not that long ago. Um but it depends on the particular agency as far
>> but as can understand but that dates the last statement of expectations dates to the previous government
>> and it's discussed at Senator Smith I think um that was yeah 2021.
so when will the statement of expectations for ASIC be issued? Um so
so minister we're working with uh the treasurer to update the same expectations following the economic reform roundt. So uh that that's in training but you know ultimately that's a matter for the treasur to consider the kind of uh the statement of dictation and kind of um provide it. We also then this kind of process with the regulators um with them to go through and develop a statement of intent.
Um, when was the economic reform roundt?
>> this feels like a long time ago. August last year.
>> Okay. And I I thought one of the outcomes from that was that the government agreed that ministers should issue statements of expectations for all regulators by the end of 2025, but ASICH one of the most important regulators.
>> It it it there was not a date put on it, I think, directly. But we, you know, we have worked um we have done a draft of an update. the expectations with those key agencies u that we completed at the end of last year. So you know we've done that first round other than I think AC we just decided that its current um ex statement which was pretty uh recent um contained the relevant language that went to expectations around better regulation. So at this stage we haven't uh actively pursued that one but of course the the treasurer could decide uh
following from December estimates and uh I think I recall there was also a discussion about allowing the new chair to come in to ASICH to shape the new statement of expectations. So there is a timing issue with with that regulator like only fair that the new chair should be able to have input or you know consultation over the statement of expectations. So that will occur.
>> Yeah. And as Mr. said that's we were operating in that basis and that was effectively the process followed with the um Mr. Long back in 2021 where he was an incoming chair and a new statement of expectations was prepared and discussed with him.
>> Okay. But the incoming chair at ASICH is already at ASICH. Right. Um so have those consultations commenced?
>> Well that will occur now the appointments made. I mean just because she was at ASICH uh she wasn't in the role of chair and obviously now that she is in that role um those that work will be finalized she was announced last week.
>> Mhm. So have have consultations been undertaken with Miss Court then on the statement of expectations yet or are you are you going to wait until she
>> they will
>> but only when she formally assumes the role of chair in in May as I understand it or are they going to be undertaken?
>> Well, we can take on notice what that's outside of my portfolio area. So I'm happy to take on notice how they'll approach that task in the interim. I
mean what I can add senator is I mean in preparing a draft we always speak to the relevant um uh regulator. So, you know, we've had discussions with staff. Um, that's quite separate as the minister intimated from actually talking to a person who's now in the chair role as to whether they themselves ultimately are comfortable with that statement or they um uh how they will read in some ways critical thing is how they'll read the statement and how it relates to a potential statement of intent.
>> Has is is the because I understand the ATO is in a similar position that hasn't been issued with a statement of expectations under this government. Is is the ATO your responsibility as well?
>> The revenue group which will appear later. Senator
so there's no I was bit surprised cuz I asked corporate about this. I mean I think on my count there's at least 10 bodies that regulating bodies or regulators that Treasury has responsibility for and which it's responsible for issuing statements of expectations for. Um, one of the main outcomes from the economic reform roundt last year was that everyone will get an updated statement of expectations. On my account, at least five of Treasury's bodies do not have one, including important bodies like the ATO, ASC, the tax practitioners board, the payment system board, um, the foreign investment division. I mean, five out of 10 for a government that's been in power for four years, no statements of expectations, and it's one of the few outcomes from the productivity round table. How do you
been new statements of expectations issued across government because I've been involved in those. Um, they often require substantial work. It's not just writing, you know, three pages and sending it on its way. It requires consultation uh with the organization and across government in some instances. Um, but that work will be being done.
>> Mr. Mr. Kelleher, can I ask I mean how many how many drafts for the ASICH statement of expectations have you provided to the treasurer's office in the past four years?
>> Um Senator, I think there's actually a question on notice that we're still um it's still um >> yeah, we haven't. So I think it's best to take that on notice and kind of deal
>> Well, there was over 550 kans asked in December. Around 500 of them have been answered. The previous witness said there's about 10% that are outstanding. So about 50. Uh it may be one of those.
>> But you could just answer it now, Mr. Kelly, if you know the answer because I presume you saw the draft response to the question on notice.
>> Uh Senator, I don't I do not have an answer with me today and nor can I recollect what the answer is from having seen a previous draft. Would
you be able to um check with officials in Treasury and come back to me during the course of today?
>> Uh if it's possible. Yes, Senator.
>> Thank you.
>> Are you done? Oh, thank you. Okay,