Senate Economics Legislation Committee, , 5:34:56 to 6:02:14
The department addresses the publication of media transcripts and the closure of lithium processing facilities.
Topics: Integrity, Manufacturing, Employment
Speakers: Hon Tim Ayres, Hon Matthew Canavan, Hon Jane Hume, Meghan Quinn PSM, Lisa Darmanin, Speaker 27
>> Afternoon. >> I was just going to I haven't got an opening statement, but I was going to >> I haven't got an opening statement, but I was just going to acknowledge Bruce's
>> Are we good to kick off? >> Okay, let's let's get started. As everyone settles, the committee's consideration of the 202526 additional budget estimates will continue with the industry science and resources portfolio. The committee will commence with the department of industry science and resources corporate enabling and business services. Uh I would just um take the opportunity to let people know we will stick with the programmed break time. So we'll break at 3:45 regardless of where we are with the sequence of questioning. Um I remind senators and witnesses that the committee has set 20th of February 26 is the date by which senators are to submit written questions on notice and 10th of April 26 is the date for the return of answers to questions taken on notice. The committee the committee welcomes Senator the Honorable Tim Ays in his capacities as minister for industry and innovation and minister for science. And I welcome Miss Megan Quinn, Secretary of the Department of Industry, Science and Resources. Miss Quinn, we do have your um opening statement tabled. Um I note that you've got some lovely words there about Dr. Bruce Warrington. Not sure if you wanted to mention something specifically, please do so.
>> Uh thank you, chair. Um I I would like to take the opportunity to congratulate and sincerely thank Dr. Bruce Warrington who's retiring from the position of chief executive officer and chief metrologist of the National Measurement Institute. Dr. Warrington has demonstrated excellence and leadership built the capacity of the National Measurement Institute to deliver world-class measurement services that the Australian industry and community rely on. And throughout his career, Dr. Warrington has led significant pieces of work, including using the National Measurement Institute's expertise to respond to CO 19 and provide advice to reform and streamline Australia's measurement law. So, I wish Dr. Warrington, his family all the very best in the future and thank him for his
that, um, uh, Bruce has been, um, playing an extraordinary leadership role in this, uh, piece of, um, uh, uh, scientific and, uh, metrological infrastructure that's just so important for Australia in economic terms, uh, in, uh, in science and research terms, uh, in terms of, uh, our electricity and energy systems. Um he's been at um he's come through as a um as a technical person uh through into a CEO role uh in quite a challenging role uh in terms of um where the assets of that um are up to and has played a played u and is well loved by his staff. Every time I go there I see the extraordinary relationship he has with his staff. So I wanted to pass on my congratulations to him um at this point as well. Thank you.
>> Thank you very much. The committee welcomes representatives also from the department of industry and science and resources, corporate enabling and business services who are all here and we'll kick off with questions. Uh Senator Hume will start.
>> Thank you chair. Uh I am on the department's website here and I'm specifically on the minister's page. I want to understand minister as a rule as a general rule when you give an interview because there's a section here that's on transcripts and speeches and media releases. If you give an interview, is it your is it you or your office that does the transcript or is it the department that does the transcript of those interviews?
>> Um, it's not something I have um spent a lot of time reflecting on. Senator, if I can come back to you. I mean, I I my my staff I know do work in this area. Whether the department >> provides any support, I'm not sure.
>> Okay, fine. Um,
>> sorry. as deputy secretary at a business services. Uh typically, yes, we would be the ones to post that transcript.
>> Right. So, you post it, but do you prepare the transcript as well? >> Right. Okay. Thank you. Um obviously, you know, I hang on every word that Minister S says, so you would understand why I take a personal interest in this.
>> Typically, we would just, you know, procure those from, you know, media companies.
>> That's fair enough. Um uh are there any instances where you would give an interview and choose not to publish the
>> Uh I'm not certain that all of my I'm not certain that it's an exhaustive list. That that's for sure. I don't um
>> Is there a criteria? Do you say I I will, you know, this one was relevant to my portfolio or this one was like a profile piece or this one was like a
>> I think you can tell from the tentiveness of my answers that the answer is no. There is no criteria to provide. I don't know whether all of them go there. I pay um very little, >> you know, that's not those are interviews that are provided for people um who may be interested in them. Um it's um I I don't I'm not as uh captivated by it as
>> Yep.
>> some people are with their own material I suppos.
>> Fair enough. I understand that. >> Uh so there's an interview on um the transcript section which is an interview with Sky News. It was on the 22nd of December with Trudy Macintosh and it goes through domestic gas reserve scheme which I understand why you've been talking about. It goes through the Bondi terrorist attack and the Royal Commission and these are things that um you know news of the day as well as as sort of portfolio specific uh issues. But there was also an interview that was by Trudy Macintosh on Sky on Wednesday the 32nd 31st of December. Uh that isn't there. Are you do you recall that interview? It was New Year's Eve surely if you do an interview on New Year's Eve.
>> I think it's very uh dedicated of me. Um >> uh I I I just don't know, Senator.
>> So in that interview,
>> since you're about to tell me, so I'm
looking forward to >> in that interview, you said that a royal commission following the Bondi terror attack would have been, and I'm quoting you here, symbolic. Was that something that you remember saying?
>> I I certainly um and I've been taken to that interview uh uh uh [clears throat] in in a couple of subsequent uh interviews. At the time, um the government was um [clears throat] working through its response to what is you know, as as is, you know, well traversed and I don't want to take up uh the the time of this committee, but the worst onshore terrorism um event in Australian history. It was a um it was um completely u mobilized by a deep anti-semitism uh and um what I was uh responding to um was uh a series of questions that went to what the government's position that had been articulated at that point. I am um I am very comfortable uh with the uh position that the government evolved over the 25 or 26 days in the leadup to the prime minister's announcement of a royal commission that uh has a very tight and specific duration. So, you know, dealt with some of the objections that I I I don't have the interview in front of me, but I'm sure I would have raised to a to a long uh long long process incorporates the security uh review or that uh Dennis Richardson uh is leading now as part of uh the Royal Commission. uh and um you know beyond um beyond that of course that there's decisions of government and cabinet processes that that um all of us in the cabinet are engaged in. So I don't want to go to the details of that process but um I uh I indicated what I indicated at the time was mobilized by the concerns that I was articulating at the time and I'm very confident uh and comfortable uh and supportive uh of the process that the careful deliberate process that the government went through uh and the conclusion that the government has reached and I look forward to that royal commission uh commencing its >> Well, Senator, um it's now been 4 minutes since you asked the question, so I think I've quite forgotten what the uh what the prem the the the question the question was, did I give an interview then? Yes, I did. Um I've been asked questions about it since. I've answered those questions and the
>> the So the symbolic was something that you used in that interview.
>> Well, well, I don't I I don't have it in front of me. I'm I'm sure
>> Well, actually, nobody does. It's not on the website. Well, >> the department's website >> and it's not on your personal website. >> I'm extremely unusual because every other interview, even similar interviews are on the website. So, my question for you is, did you or your office make the decision not to publish that transcript?
>> I I have I have no idea.
>> So, you didn't personally make the decision not to publish it?
>> Senator, that that is an interview that I gave. I've uh been interviewed about the interview uh in relation to a whole lot of other things. It's been asked uh it's not uh it's not a secret.
>> So other people have asked you about the inappropriate use of the word symbolic for a royal commission into the Bondi terrorist.
>> It was a secret in the sense that it was on television. >> So you know I mean I'm not um transcripts are um terrific but I don't spend too much time on them. I I I
obviously I suppose for for your average punter like myself, I would like [snorts] to know whether the transcripts that are either on the department's website are complete or even if they're not complete, whether the old whether they are alternatively complete on your own website. Now, your own website, your personal website, that is entirely up to you. You could, you know, publish poetry on there. But if it's a department's website and this is the kind of interview that you would normally publish on that website, it's interesting that for some reason that particular
>> I'm speculating it's it's exclusively about matters unrelated to the portfolio. I don't know whether that was the reason. Um I'm going to ignore your invitation to publish poetry. I think that's probably >> that's probably in all of our interests.
Can I just be very clear? You didn't direct either the department or anyone else to take that into >> Good. >> Your staff have your staff given it a
>> Uh, no. No, no idea. No idea.
>> All right. Did the prime minister's office direct suggest or otherwise intimate that they thought that that transcript should not be published on the department's website?
>> I think I'd probably notice if that
Miss Quinn, did the department have any role in preparing the transcript of that
>> Uh, I'll pass to my colleague.
>> Senator, I'm not aware. We would have to take that on notice. Obviously, we we see a lot of media activity from the minister, but apologies. That particular interview I'm not uh directly familiar with, so I'd need to take it on notice.
>> But clearly, there's a protocol. you mentioned it before that it's not necessarily the department's role to uh um to produce the transcript but it is to upload it.
>> I would say senator though we don't publish everything. So um
>> how do you decide what to publish and what not to
>> the minister's point before um we'll we'll we'll publish uh as um as it's uh deemed to be um uh important to put >> well Senator we always work with with government around this is a minister's website of course we would want to make sure that the minister's uh uh clear about what's being published on that
>> okay so you consult with the minister's part with with the minister's office as to whether a transcript was relevant to your website.
>> Well, well, maybe, but as as you indicated, it's New Year's Eve, Senator. I mean, I I'm not sure that that um you know, the the the sort of every utterance that I make on, you know, every radio station's going to get a run. Um uh I I I don't know. I haven't haven't um haven't you know weighed the uh the amount of things it is that are published on that website which I've never looked at I have to say um uh uh match match the the interviews that I do um I I I don't know I don't
>> so I the 22nd of de December's interview obviously just a couple of days before Christmas that one was there uh but the one on the 31st of December wasn't Can I ask again? Did the department engage with the minister's office to request approval to publishment publish it or did the minister's office suggest that that interview should not be published?
>> Senator, we would need to take that on notice.
>> We have already taken it on notice, so happy to take it on notice. But um you know 31st of December would have been in our shutdown period. Y >> uh as part of the public service shutdown arrangements uh and so we would have to check with the people who are on deck.
>> What was the what was the shutdown arrangement? What date did this shutdown arrangement begin?
>> Christmas day.
>> Uh Senator, we yeah we finished end of business on the 24th and we're back in the office on the 2nd of January.
>> Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks, Ch.
Who am I moving to?
>> Well, I'm happy to take the call. Thank you, chair. Uh look, I just did I know we're in corporate, but I did want to start uh just to recognize the sad news today that uh uh Alba Mala is shutting down a lithium processing plant. Another 250 jobs lost in our manufacturing sector. Uh can I just start with asking uh uh did they let the government know about this announcement before it was
>> I I will So this is a matter for the Minister for Resources. I'll make sure that we're in a position to answer that uh this evening when we go to resources.
>> This is a manufacturing plant though. Well, >> I suppose you can. It's a processing of mineral resources into a valuated product in lithium hydroxide. But uh and and I believe this department or this section of the department we have well we're in corporate so overall the department and you're representing the other minister I presume but um so I probably can ask the questions anyway but you do have a battery strategy which we'll get to in all of these things and it has implications for that obviously.
>> Yes. Um I'm I was aware and the Minister for Resources uh was also aware in the days leading up to today's announcement.
>> Can can I get an understanding of uh what if any assistance Albam had uh been offered by the Australian government before uh this announcement today.
this is an area that Minister King takes policy responsibility for and the team that look after the critical minerals activity of the department, right? >> So they will be here later this uh later this evening.
>> It's just that it does cross a number across a number a number of parts of the department. So they didn't get any funding from the uh modern manufacturing initiative, the national reconstruction
be in a position to answer questions but we in terms of the kind of carriage of the sector and looking after it and pulling it together. Um my my team will be able to answer later on
>> which team cuz I'm just wondering >> because I know we said the critical minerals they do the production tax credit do they?
>> Uh so the critical minerals team do the production tax credit but they also do the industrial like liaison with the critical mineral sector. uh and we work um you know as you say there are tools across um the suite of uh programs that can provide assistance to different parts of the industrial complex. Uh but we do have in terms of stakeholder relationship and pulling it together from an industry particular company perspective. We tend to try and uh to coordinate that and that would be the front line would be in our critical minerals team.
>> Okay. And that and that production tax incentive is um to start in July of 2027. Uh it is designed to provide confidence to eligible operators and producers um uh that uh that they will get that level of support for what is um produced manufactured uh in Australia. This is a very difficult uh uh decision for Alba Marley of of course and it indicate you know it it it indicates the scale of the uh uh for projects that are operating in global supply chains that are concentrated um opaque subject to market distortion. That is the world in which Australian uh minerals processing is is operating. Um that is why uh the government has established the future made in Australia uh production tax incentive and credit Uh that is why we are engaged with partners around the world. Um it is of course um deeply disappointing that this uh that this firm has made this decision to put this facility in a care and maintenance.
>> Um yes I just just going back I'm just a little confused where all this sits. That's all because in uh program 1.1 there is a future battery capabilities program. Uh so I know we'll get there later but that's why I'm asking up front because it's cuts across potentially so many parts of the department. uh do they is is that program does that cover >> [clears throat] >> uh uh all aspects of the battery supply chain including the uh uh processing of lithium hydroxide?
>> So that so the uh as you say there are different programs at different parts of the the production chain and the um the battery initiative is about battery manufacturing uh battery hydroxide. So, so not the precursors that go into the battery. That's the that that's that's critical minerals production tax um initiative and other critical minerals aspects
>> in in a sense. I mean, I'm sure you'll take us to this, but it's it's one layer of the stack of activities that get you to um whether it's um in this case lithium batteries, but
>> Right. Okay. Um, so do we, um, where do we produce lithium hydroxide now in
>> Uh, so I'm very happy to get my team that look after that to answer the questions that they will be here with the critical minerals team. Um, and uh, it is the case that this is a manufacturing uh, company that had previously reduced its production. Uh, and this last step is is uh, consistent with those decisions before. They still have mining interests. um where they're kind of the concentrates being there are other companies that produce um hydroxide in Western Australia, but the team, the critical minerals team will be able to provide you more details.
>> Just that they'll come after the other one because I'm wondering I mean how how realistic is it for us cuz to make a battery just to make sure I understand this right. It's been a few years since I've been in the details of it. But to make a battery, you need that spoamine, you need the lithium hydroxide, then go to the b the actual batteries. I think it's another step I might have forgotten.
>> Uh there's concentrate in
>> concentrate. >> So if we lose a lithium hydroxide part of this uh supply chain, >> well, we can't really be a battery manufacturer in any self-sufficient sense, can we?
>> Uh so we so that's right. If we obviously don't have all the levels, although there are the ability to import different parts of the supply.
>> Yeah. But then we're not
Canavan I suppose and we we should go back to these issues because it' be a useful discussion I think when that when that team comes in and there is other production. Um the objective of of the government's approach in future made in Australia is not that Australia produces every single thing ourselves. We are not reverting back to some you know um effort to make everything. The effort here is to make Australia more economically resilient by uh lifting our position particularly in the mining sector, particularly in the mining sector. So we move up the value chain uh and um not in every product area. You know, you'll see in some of the international cooperation agreements that are struck from time to time, there is a there's a prioritization. Um uh but um uh and that that does mean it would be good in some battery areas to have local production here in Australia. That's what that program we've just been talking about is directed towards, but not every category of battery uh will be made here in Australia.
>> Um just uh on this particular one, you did say you'd been alluded to it before. uh uh why why hasn't the government in this case sought to uh provide assistance to save these 250 jobs when it did at nearstar at Mount Eiser uh uh uh is it bell bay you help me out Senator >> Colbeck fing haven't done that yet but they're talking at least uh and uh and we'll get to Tomago later as well so why the different approach here when the government did step in to save those other jobs in different parts of the country.
>> So the the um interventions that we have made very significant in Mount Eiza um uh in relation to uh Glen Coror's facility but more broadly there to secure uh many thousands of jobs in that uh industrial system in northwest Queensland and then through to um or whether it's nearstar where we have moved to support the operations of that lead smelter and associated uh critical minerals production antimony production in particular in that facility and in Hobart uh with the near staff facility uh there uh and the discussions that we're engaged in uh making significant progress in relation to securing lowcost electricity for Tomago for example, that does require firstly uh the um the uh seeking support uh and it requires the state government engaging with that and of course it requires us making uh judgments about those issues. This company has made a decision uh that's been outlined. Um as I indicated, I was aware of it in the days leading up to it. um uh the officials who be in a position to um see if there's been any engagement between the uh the company and the uh officials. you know no point uh glossing it. It it indicates why uh circumstances are so tough in this uh not just a competitiveness issue but a market concentration issue. Uh and that is why um the framework that we're um that we're delivering is so important.
>> I think it it
>> not not not not everything um succeeds, Senator. That's that's the fact of it.
>> If nothing else, it does indicate the failure of net zero. Another massive
failure.
just lost more and more manufacturing manufacturing jobs we keep are now ones that are on taxpayer funed life support.
It's just the facts minister. Well, it's garbage.
>> Factual true net zero has been a complete disaster for manufacturing now. there's a
>> is this all for um corporate?
>> Well, I it's all about the 250 jobs that have been lost. So, I think they deserve us to spend some time on a chair.
>> I'm not trying to shut you down. I'm
just All right. So
>> working out if we've we're going to get some more kind of foolsome answers if
I'm also wondering that but we'll see
>> with other people in
>> I'll do my best. Um I'm just going to an FOI better >> disclosure 2025. In 2025 number 70 in that disclosure there's a table. Well we've we've got the heading of the You don't give us the full table. Um I'll just pull it up against on page 10. Um the title of that table uh says industry facilities at risk key dates and proposed high level internal to government handling. Uh this one I think at a date. Yeah, at a date this one that was in the FOI as at 20th of June last year. Uh was uh Al Albamali's uh lithium hydroxide processing facility in that table.
>> Uh so um this is corporate um and uh that that uh document was produced that in our indust in my industrial uh group. So if you'd like to move to there, I can bring them to
>> that's program 1.1 then. Uh yes. >> All right. You're familiar with that that table that I'm talking about. Okay. We'll >> come back to that then.
>> Okay.
>> Oh, I'm still going with corporate, but