Senate Economics Legislation Committee, , 5:23:44 to 5:35:23
The ABS addresses the availability of statistics on crime, child slavery, and First Nations incarceration rates.
Topics: Public safety, First Nations, Child safety
Speakers: Dr David Gruen, Senator Malcolm Roberts, Senator Lisa Darmanin, Unknown Speaker, Interjection
>> All right, we are back and broadcasting. So, um, thank you very much for returning. We've got the representatives from the Australian Bureau of Statistics, and I'm going to go to Senator Roberts for questions.
>> Thank you, Chair, and thank you for appearing again. Um I think my questions will be fairly short. Uh the factf finding so it's been brought to my attention that there are some statistical areas that are not currently available through the ABS. Data on these issues would be particularly useful in social and economic planning. First question is what is the state of recorded honor killings of women and girls in Australia? We know it happens, but it would be useful to know the extent, circumstances, and cultural and religious backgrounds of the victims and
>> Senator, that would you asked that question as a um as a question on notice, and we gave you an answer.
>> Oh, sorry, my staff must have made a mistake. So, what is the answer?
>> Uh, so uh we have um uh you submitted that question uh last year in December. uh and uh we provided the answer to you. So um the answer is that the causes of death publication records the number of deaths due to assault assaults each year. Cause of death codes reflect what happened to the deceased. Uh when coding a death to an assault, details are captured regarding the injury and the mechanism. Circumstances causing the injury such as bodily force or gunshot. The reason a perpetrator or user of violence undertakes an assault is not recorded. So it so we would not collect um the we get the information from coroners and from doctors. That's where we get the we don't have we don't have an independent source of information. So we we use uh we use that data to to um produce the causes of death publication.
So is there any way that can be that can be changed?
>> Uh if the if that if doctors and coroners uh uh collected that information then it could be then then we would be able to collect it.
>> So what you're saying is doctors would not not collect a honor killing
>> as far as I'm aware that that is not one
of the categories. There wouldn't be any other source that would identify would not police record
>> s not as far No, not as far as I'm aware.
>> Okay. Thank you. So there's no way of knowing where it's happening in Australia.
>> That's correct. No, sorry. I don't know that whether there's no way of knowing. All I can tell you is that it's not information that we're in a position to collect. Uh um
>> you can't identify where where it could
come from. Well, we can certainly identify where um uh uh the in the causes of death publication, we do we can identify which deaths are due to assaults and where they occurred, but we can't identify that they were honor killings or not.
>> Okay. Thank you. What is the state of child slavery in Australia? The context that I'm considering relates to forced marriages and child brides. sometimes where the proposed marriage may take place outside of Australia and an Australian may go to foreign country marry a child and then come back um so outside of Australia and outside the protections of Australian law this data would be useful on many levels particularly in the context of child sexual abuse
>> so uh the answer we gave you is that we don't collect national data about child slavery the Australian Institute of Criminology publication modern slavery in Australia reports modern slavery data including forced marriage and child trafficking and that that public and we provided you with a link.
Why are national figures not available on the number of elective not because of medical abnormalities abortion is performed in Australia per year medical and surgical data on this issue seems haphazard at best and we've been working with um independent providers and they use surveys sampling it's there are there are accurate estimates coming together but we're wondering why the ABS doesn't do it
>> so the our publication uh on perinatal deaths includes pregnancy terminations but they are not a complete count of terminations nor can they be separately identified. The collections cover still births uh and neonatal deaths. uh if the certifying practitioner notes a cause of death was termination of pregnancy then there is a there is an a a code uh there's an there's an international standard and there's an a code in that international standard uh and um in a situation where a medical practitioner has not noted the cause of death as termination then that code can be assigned um but no further details available on whether the termination was elective or how the termination was performed. Um, deaths where the gestation is less than 20 weeks or with a birth weight of less than 400 grams are not in scope as they are not required to be registered. So the answer is there is partial information but not complete.
>> That te's up with what we're finding anyway. So it's up to individual or private entities to record that data which which they some of them are starting to do very very well.
>> Right.
>> Okay. Thank you. From time to time, we hear of anomalies in the number of Aboriginal people incarcerated in the context of suggested disproportionate representation based on percentile of the Australian population. Has there been any attempt to further break down the types of offenses involved in these incarcerations?
>> The answer is yes. The ABS publishes annual statistics about adult prisoners in custody in a publication called Prisoners in Australia, including demographic data, imprisonment rates, and most serious offense. And this includes information about the most serious offense or charge for adult Aboriginal and toouristr islander people uh in prisons by sex, legal status, and sentence uh length. And we provided a link.
>> Okay. Thank you. So, you've sent that to >> We have. You might get seven out of
>> I might. Well, [laughter]
>> and my apologies.
>> I don't tend to count my chickens, Senator.
>> My apologies if that's the case because someone has not done this in the office. The media have raised issues of purported hotspots of particular types of crime throughout Australia, including property and violent crime. Have Have you got that one?
>> Yes.
>> Well, okay. Just
>> uh the ABS publishes annual statistics about alleged offenders proceeding proceeded against the by police in Australia in recorded crime offenders. Data is available nationally and for states and territories. It includes demographic characteristics uh for example number of offenders by age, sex, and indigenous status for selected jurisdictions for each of the most serious offense types. And again, we provided the link.
>> So that's carjacking, home invasion, drive by shootings,
I presume so. I don't have that detail here, but it does say uh for the most serious uh offense types.
>> So, carjacking, home invasions, home invasion would be serious. I suppose drive by shooting is definitely serious. Arson, break and enters, assaults, rape and murder.
>> You could check that uh the data at that link and it would tell you
>> that's an ABS link.
>> Yes.
Who determines what data shall be mined by the ABS? From a social policy perspective, missing information is a great way to avoid uncomfortable questions.
>> Well, I we certainly are not uh not in the business of um providing of not collecting information uh on the grounds that it might >> ask uh un uncomfortable questions.
>> No, I'll interject. I think you go to great trouble to find data from various sources. It's just that some data is is not recorded. That's all we wanting to know why.
>> Yeah. So the answer is um that um we obviously we're we are spending the public's money. Uh uh we are funded by the public. Uh and so we have to be um uh careful uh um uh uh stewards of that of those resources. And ultimately um I set the work program uh obviously with the help of my colleagues uh and uh under the go under the framework determined by the acts under which we operate. Um and so um again we've provided a link uh about information about the forward work work program uh and we make uh decisions about um priorities uh which are based on um how we think we can best use the resources available to us.
>> Thank you. So it's cost benefit
>> broadly speaking uh I I mean I'm not sure that we can do uh sophisticated costbenefit analysis but we can at least uh we can we certainly take it seriously and we make judgments about what things we can do and what things we can't afford to do.
>> And so you set the program you've got the authority under the law to set the program for what data is collected and how it's obtained and
>> Yes. And I I mean obviously I don't do it on my own. I do it with the with the professional advice of the staff. But yes, it's ultimately my call.
>> So you can change it at a at a in a heartbeat if you if you get the right data to make a decision.
>> I think if I changed it in in in a heartbeat, there might be some other heartbeats that you would [laughter]
>> you know I'm getting you don't have to go to get permission from someone to
change it. No, I it is that the the forward work program is something that's in uh that determine I mean there are certainly circumstances where government funds us to do specific things and then we do those things
>> and if someone outside the government came to you and said can you collect data like this or would you collect data like this you'd make a case for it yes
certainly community consultation is something that we do uh as a matter of course and we take on board um requests for um collections.
>> That's the key point. Thank you very much. I'm sorry about the duplication.
>> That's all right. Now let I can give you the number if that would be helpful. >> So the question number was was SB351.
>> Thank you.
>> SB351.
>> Thanks, J.
>> Thank you very much, Senator Roberts. >> Um, so that concludes um our questions for the ABS. Thank you very much for your time. Uh, the committee will now conclude its consideration of the treasury portfolio for today. I thank office of officers of the treasury portfolio who have provided evidence. Um, just some information for the program going into the rest of the day. Um the committee has agreed for Questicon to be released. Um there may be some questions on notice for them. Uh the committee will now suspend for a short break to allow the change over of officers. So we will suspend until um the next group come to the table. Thank