Senate Economics Legislation Committee [Part 2], , 2:38:03 to 2:44:43
Updates on bullying complaints within the ATO and the current status of investigations into KPMG's conduct.
Topics: Integrity, Workplace culture, Whistleblower protections
Speakers: Senator Barbara Pocock, Rob Heferen, Jeremy Hirschhorn, Andrew Orme, Speaker 4
>> Thank you. I'm trying to be very succinct here. We'll see how we go. I wanted to turn to a related matter exposed in the Quan that I've already referred to uh AET 031 uh where there were bullying accusations by an AT officer. It was alleged against Mr. O'Neil. In relation to that complaint, uh, Katherine Willis, uh, ATO general counsel is on the public record as saying, quote, "A quick read gives the impression that the authors of the complaint have been invited to give negative feedback," end of quote, and the nature of them related to conflicts over operational business issues between agencies. Um, the Mr. O'Neil has said on the public record he was never offered a chance to respond or put those any accusations to him. Is it the case uh that there was in fact no allegation of bullying uh against Mr. O'Neil?
>> I'm sorry, Senator. I'm I'm not familiar with the When was that question on notice? It was 20.
>> No, no, it's a question to you now. Mr. Hers may be able to illuminate that. You may take it on notice if you want to.
think it's a matter of public record that a staff member who reported to me made a complaint, a bullying complaint about Mr. O'Neil's behavior which went through the normal course to uh our corporate area and it was considered and no further action was taken and that is where the matter
>> was the complaint upheld or not?
Well, Senator, as you've said that you the information which is provided under previous notices was that that complaint was not upheld on the basis >> of the understanding of Miss Willis >> that uh effectively that Mr. O'Neil was an employee of a different agency and it was a dispute between agencies. Um I would just say that that uh because an uh complaint was not upheld does not mean that the complaint was
honestly made. But do do you ever deal with a complaint of that form between two individuals in an agency or between agencies where the person complained against has no knowledge and is not consulted and has no place no voice in that process. Is that common? Do you usually do that Mr. Hers?
>> So Senator the the this is an ATO thing not a second commissioner keg thing. Complaints are made. They're considered by our corporate function and they go through various processes and if the complaint I might pass over to my colleague but of course uh there is natural justice given to those who are complained about if a complaint is being looked into. So,
>> so, so, so just just one thing um uh can't help myself, but the mentioned there complaint between officer and two agencies. >> It's just the one agency. >> It's the ATO. It's all the one agency.
So, >> sorry, Mr. Hershorn said that, not me.
>> Yeah, but I think you said that in uh and uh so what I think
>> so to clarify Miss Willis said that in her consideration of the complaint at the time, which I would say was a misapprehension of the different of the
could I ask rather than getting down in the weeds right now, thank you for coming to the table, uh could you provide evidence that the the account of what happened and the pro the protocol for natural justice where there is a complaint or an issue between two people and whether Mr. O'Neil was afforded natural justice in relation to this. I want to go quickly. Uh last I asked both the TPB and ATO about whether you were investigating KPMG. Uh Mr. to cure. You said in June that the TVB had conducted preliminary inquiries. You're not conducting a formal investigation in relation to the KPMG matter because it related to audit matters, not the provision of tax services, but you were keeping a watching brief. But then in a letter to the PJC uh on 21st of July in response to concerns about conflicts of interest, you advised you have recused yourself from any involvement in the current current KPMG investigation. So for clarity, what is the status uh of any TPP inquiries and investigations into KPMG? Is there an investigation?
>> Um Senator, I have recused myself as I have outlined with a formal plan and we've appointed another board member to work with our team. So if I may refer that question to Mr. Andrew, the TV
>> Andrew, secretary text practitioner board. Um I can confirm as is uh publicly known that we are currently conducting an investigation in relation to KPMG. Um and that investigation includes consideration of matters uh relating to uh the disclosures of unauthorized disclosures of order materials.
>> And you also have a role, do you not? Uh uh to examine agencies within your purview to ensure they're behaving I'm looking uh previous testimony with honesty and integrity. Is that part of what you're looking at in relation to
>> uh yes I um in terms of uh what we were looking at in relation to KPMG um uh it includes whether there would be breaches of any code of conduct items. Some of those code code of conduct items are specific to taxation matters. So probably would not touch on an audit practice but others are more general to the firm. So for instance one of the code of conduct items is that uh a tax a registered tax agent acts with honesty and integrity.
>> Thank you. and the ATO if I can come to you. Uh in the last estimates on 4th June, you said you were not investigating KPMG. Is that still the case?
>> That is still the case. Uh and I've received a letter from uh Senator O'Neal and capacity is the chair of the parliamentary joint committee on corporation financial services in 5th of June uh outlining a range of um uh questions for us to respond to. I replied on the 17th of June confirming that um we didn't have any information of interest to the committee. We had a few contracts with KPMG. They were coming to their end. Uh we're working with the department of finance and the digital transformation agency to ensure um uh that uh the contractual rights uh uh are looked at uh and determine whether any action is required as a result of the whistleblower allegations. We received advice from KPMG assuring us that um all their um the people involved with and contracts uh have done the appropriate um uh declarations of um uh conflicts of interest and we assured the committee assured the chair that the HR will continue to monitor developments and assess our contractual position as further information becomes available. Nothing else has become available. uh if it had we would have I'm I'm sure we would have uh taken the steps to update.