Senate Economics Legislation Committee [Part 2], , 2:15:34 to 2:21:20
Examination of potential conflicts of interest regarding Mr. de Cure's prior employment at KPMG and his recusal.
Topics: Integrity, Workplace culture
Speakers: Speaker 4, Senator Barbara Pocock, Unknown Speaker
O'Neal wrote to you Mr. Dur on the 10th of July 2026 seeking assurances that your former 25-y year career at as a KPMG tax partner would not compromise the TPB's investigation into allegations against KPMG. You will recollect that letter? >> Yes, I do. In your response, you said you recused yourself in late June after discussions had already commenced about a KPMG investigation. After that, you did not in attend formal meetings with KPMG. Uh your contact uh and conversation with a KPMG audit partner uh through your position as chair of um the Royal Society for Flying Doctor Service uh of which KPMG is the auditor and you are the chair of the audit committee. You had had a conversation
>> uh Senator I'm not the chair of the audit committee. I'm I'm the chair of the RFDS.
>> Sorry. Okay. Yes. >> But you had a conversation I understand in the connection with KPMG as the audit of the raw flying doctor service. Is
that correct? >> That's correct. And can I can I give you detail of the conversation?
>> Uh can I finish my question first? Uh so the scandal was you had that conversation. You did not declare uh the conversation. Um, you used the word disgruntled to describe the whistleblower from KPMG and you provided in that letter, I'm talking about everything was in the letter that you replied, you provided a plan to manage conflicts of interest. Um, Mr. Du, you initially decided you could continue engaging with the KPMG matter, including answering questions at Senate estimates despite your long 25 years with KPMG. Why did you think it was appropriate given that long career with KPMG to persist uh in that matter in that way?
>> Senator I I will say very clearly that I did have a long career with KPMG. I left KPMG of my own valition. Uh I retired as a partner on 30th of June 2012 which is some 14 years ago. >> When these matters became uh part of the um public interest earlier this year they were a very uh they were emerging through various inquiries, newspaper articles, the work that that you and Senator O'Neal have done. They were emerging uh in you know in small pieces of information. At the outset, we were in a a set of circumstances um where we were seeing things in the paper. uh we were appearing before the PJC and and Senate estimates and at that stage things were uh quite preliminary and in other matters that have been previous matters in relation to KPMG I have always recused myself from being part of the board conduct committee uh at the stage when there's been an investigation I've recused myself from any involvement in in the decision making in relation to KPMG matters. In this matter, we were in a set of circumstances where there was the matter emerging. It it appeared to largely relate to the conduct of people in the audit practice. We had had internal discussions at the TPB to to note that the issue was there uh to talk about how this relates to our work and we we had pretty much reached uh the the internal conclusion that well it's it's a large firm. there's an issue in relation to honesty, integrity, and ethics. And that's and it's also a registered tax practitioner firm. So, our staff at at that point, we were in front of a PJC commission, a PJC inquiry uh and I responded to a question uh and saying that I was aware that our team had engaged with KPMG. I was aware that our team was making inquiries in relation to this matter. We also I was aware that we were making inquiries into some other matters but I was not involved in any meetings with KPMG. I was not involved in any of the actual inquiries as chair of the TBB. I was briefed by the team that these things were happening and as as this matter emerged uh I spoke with Mr. W the secretary on a number of occasions about the appropriate action and I concluded in the course of those conversations to make the decision to recuse myself from any involvement in the KPMG matter. It subsequently came uh to be I think it was on the 29th of June um that we uh talked about it. I decided it was appropriate to have a formal conflict management plan that we documented that I signed and put on the the formal record of the TPB that I will have no involvement in anything to do with this KPMG investigation. We appointed another board member to leers with our team in relation to those investigations. uh and genuinely um that is about making sure that the external perception of procedural fairness and equity is there. I I can honestly say to you I I accept and understand why people might think that there is a perception of potential conflict but there is no actual conflict of interest.
>> But uh Mr. de Cure, you acknowledge that a KPMG audit partner spoke.
>> Can I explain that?
>> Can I finish? Sure. um spoke to you about the whistleblower and you did not formally disclose the conversation and it was not recorded in the minutes. Why