Senate Economics Legislation Committee [Part 2], , 1:54:23 to 1:59:15
Inquiry into the use of legacy superannuation archives and the lawfulness of director penalty notices and debt waivers.
Topics: Integrity, Government spending
Speakers: Senator Malcolm Roberts, Jeremy Hirschhorn, Rob Heferen, David Allen, Senator Lisa Darmanin
>> So hopefully we can get through this
quickly. colleagues. More importantly,
>> the ATO website states that the pre208 member contribution statement archive is used to check employer compliance with the super guarantee, meaning that directors have paid super for their employees. I'm advised that when affected employers attempted to resolve these matters, your own officers freely admit they're only checking the modernized Australian tax system and have no knowledge of the earlier member contribution statement archive whatsoever. No knowledge of the archive. those those officers are searching a system that contains no data before 1st of July 2018. If the search returns blank that does not mean that the superanuation was never paid. It means your later system does not hold that data. So it seems that directors were wrongly charged. Why have ADO staff not been trained to understand that the modernized Australian tax system only contains records from 1st of July 2018? that a blank result does not mean non-payment and that the member contribution act statement archive must be consulted before any pre208 debt is raised and on that basis how can any of these debts be considered lawfully raised
>> senator look I'd like to take that on notice and if if there are particular cases that have been raised with you by constituents it would be very useful if at if on their permission you could share those details with me. What you describe does not sound uh to me like what is happening. Um but I would be very happy to look into it and it makes it a lot easier to look into things like this if you can share specific complaints. We have in our
possession correspondence from ATO officers to affected taxpayers directing them to authorize the ATO to apply to the Department of Finance on their behalf for debt relief in relation to these director penalty notices. Can you confirm when a taxpayer receives resolution through the Department of Finance debt waiver process, they're required to agree to confidentiality conditions as part of that resolution?
>> Uh David Allen, second commissioner, frontline operations. Um there are some circumstances um that we uh when we look at taxpayers particularly in some vulnerable situations or circumstances uh where we think it may be appropriate to um seek a a waiver from the department of finance. There's a very um there's a very tight process available through the department of finance to seek waiver of tax debts um and uh we will um in very limited circumstances uh support that but ultimately it's a decision for the department of finance as to whether they wave that debt
>> and sorry sir I think any conditions that are put on the taxpayer after the debt is waved I think you mentioned there was a a condition placed I think that would be a matter for the Department of Finance, but I think it might be prudent if we again if we we could take that one on notice to um to be sure of our response.
>> Okay. Uh two short questions left. How many taxpayers have been treated by way of this debt waiver mechanism where they never in fact owed a debt? And I think that's the key point. They never owed a debt because it was the taxation office that was at fault, but then then they levied a debt and then they were waved. So it's on their record. How many >> on notice?
>> I have to take on notice. So I hazard a guess it would be zero but uh uh we'll take it on notice.
>> Last question chair why is an Australian taxpayer who has been wrongly treated wrongly pursued for debt they never owed being silenced as a condition of rel receiving that relief? Yeah, as I
mentioned, Senator, the um the requirement of any condition of receiving the payment from the Department of Finance. So, it wouldn't come from us. It come the the waiver comes from the Department of Finance. We don't have the capacity to wave uh tax debts. That would come from finance. that I must confess that sounds unusual, but uh uh been surprised before, but we'll take that on notice and make sure we get a response to
>> I'd be pleased to hear that a lot of this sounds unusual, but we leave that to the questions on notice and the
appeals. Senator, if I could maybe make one addition, which is >> if we think a debt has been unfairly levied after, you know, we've got more evidence from the taxpayer, we do not send the taxpayer to the department of finance, we amend their debt.
Okay?
>> So, by definition, if we are sending a debt to the department of finance is because we think it is a real debt, but we think that because of the vulnerable position of the taxpayer, the the Minister for Finance may choose to exercise her discretion to wave the
>> Thank you. Thanks, Chair.
>> Thanks. Appreciate that. Um, Senator