Senate Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Legislation Committee, , 1:10:25 to 1:17:30
The committee questions a $3 billion budget discrepancy in the submarine program and the specific role and support provided to Special Envoy Luke Gosling.
Topics: Procurement, Government spending, Public service staffing
Speakers: David Shoebridge, Hon Michaelia Cash, Steven Groves, John Reid PSM, Hon Jenny McAllister, Admiral David Johnston AC RAN, Raff Ciccone
>> All right. Well, well, I'm going to a different matter, but I might just introduce it at the beginning. um when I looked through um the the initial budget papers and then the um and then the updated budget papers um for this financial year um I was looking at the nuclearpowered submarines budget expenditure and in the initial 2526 budget um the nuclearpowered submarine project had an approved project expenditure of $1.56 billion. Um then in the halfyear update, sorry, no, the initial expenditure, so I'll say again, the initial budget for 2526 for the nuclearpowered submarine project had a a total approved um expenditure of 15.448 billion. Um then in the halfearly updates that increased to $18.56 billion. What's the $3 billion of additional expenditure on nuclear submarines that popped up in the first six months of >> Admiral Johnson, can you shed any light on the $3 billion change?
>> Senator, good morning. I think the CFO is coming up to be able to answer those questions and of course some of them are relevant to the Australian Submarine Agency as well.
>> This is you know it's just surfaced like a uh secondhand Virginia in the budget.
>> Once we get the answer I'll have to move the call around. I'll come back to Senator Cash. So let's just >> Thank you very much. >> Hang on. We'll just get this answer and then we'll >> and then I'll hand it to the call.
Um Steven Groves, Chief Finance Officer, Department of Defense. Senator, could you just repeat the numbers again for this year that you were talking?
>> Yeah. So, if you go to uh table 64 on the original budget, the total was 15.448 billion. Go to table 54 on the halfearly update. >> Mhm. >> And it's 18.567 billion. You have to add the two numbers together under approved project expenditure. >> Someone must know where the $3 billion is going.
>> Sorry to the additional estimates table. Which what was the table reference?
>> T Well, the Do you want the original? Which budget?
>> This is the latest one. >> Well, >> the majar update as you referred to
>> the midyear update table 64 page 100 to help.
>> Yeah. So table 64 in the portfolio additional estimate statements includes approved funding. So um I'd say the movement between the two years has been that there has been additional um submissions cabinet submissions considered by government.
>> It's not two years it's 6 months from the budget the original budget for 2526.
>> All right. Can we just let the witnesses answer because I'm I'm I'm going to the call around otherwise you'll have to wait till you come back
>> in in in the interim there has been between the two budget updates there has been cabinet submissions have gone to government government has approved additional funding um for the nuclearpowered submarine program that was previously provisioned as unapproved funding within the defense IIP.
>> Well, what was the three billion? Is it money going to the US? Is it more money going to Rolls-Royce? $3 million just
>> I would have to take that on notice but that question would be best directed to the ASA um I'm giving you the high level view of how that movement has occurred and and what caused it uh the detail would be best directed to the ASA senator
>> we'll have to come back to you a bit later Senator Senator Cash
>> uh thank you very much chair I just had some very brief questions on the role of the special envoy Mr. Gosling um can you just clarify for me what Mr. Gosling's role actually is uh in particular as it relates to his relationship with defense as the special envoy, but I understand he's not a member of the executive, but at the same time he is listed on the department's website and he signed the forward to the ADF parliamentary
>> Uh thanks Senator Cash. It is the case that special envoys have been appointed by uh governments including governments you were part of to uh perform particular tasks to uh perform outreach in relation to areas where they have special interest or expertise. Uh Mr. Gosling as you'd understand does have a deep connection to the defense portfolio. Uh I don't think that these arrangements are unusual.
>> No, I'm just asking about what his role is. I'm not saying it's an unusual arrangement. I'm merely asking about the role. Um, does he receive parliamentary support from the department on correspondence or other matters in his role?
>> Had some questions. Sorry. >> Oh, we've got some other questions.
>> Senator John Reed, deputy secretary, governance from the department. >> Um, we don't provide um regular support to Mr. Gosling in parliamentary in parliamentary matters. We provide support in relation to the issues that the minister's outlined is his specific special envoy responsibilities.
>> No, sorry. Understood. Exactly. So the answer is obviously as a parliamentarian, he's a parliamentarian, but as the special envoy, uh what support does he get from the department?
Um, Senator, if he is if he is asked by the deputy prime minister to attend an event, we we might provide information about the event for for for Mr. Gosling or his office. Um,
>> correspondence if someone writes to him.
>> Uh, Senator, I have to take that on notice. I'm not aware of correspondence we've processed for Mr. Gosling.
>> Okay. Um, does he receive briefings from the department?
>> Uh, not regular briefings, Senator. there might be an issue on which the deputy prime minister has asked him to to to to manage or or maybe he's been asked to to take a meeting. We might provide some information in relation to those things.
>> Um can I just get you to take on notice um just uh the number of briefings that have been provided uh to him and when are any defense staff secundered to his office either as DLOS or personal staff? >> Okay. Has he requested a briefing on the sale of the port of Darwin?
Not that I'm aware, senator. I can take
that on. >> Okay. Thank you. Right. I also would like to now turn to the defense estate sale. So, does defense have a figure of the number of reserf personnel, cadets, and defense officials uh who will be affected or displaced as a result of the sale of the 67 sites? And can I confirm it's 67 sites?