Senate Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Legislation Committee, , 1:40:41 to 2:18:11
The committee reviews personnel relocation plans and examines the ADF's management of a specific veteran suicide case involving the Royal Commission.
Topics: Public service staffing, Royal commissions, Workplace culture
Speakers: Malcolm Roberts, Admiral David Johnston AC RAN, Celia Perkins, Ellie Whiteaker, Raff Ciccone
>> given that Good morning. Hello. >> Uh given that we've established that uh people are our most important asset uh in the Australian Defense Force. I also have some questions about the defense estate announcement that was made and particularly how it will impact our uh defense personnel. So, um I wonder if you could take us through the plan for consultation going forward with um all of those categories of people that you stepped out in your earlier answer to Senator Cash. Uh so, what kind of consultation will occur with them and their families um over the coming months?
>> Thank you. And um Senator, I might start with cadetses because I haven't addressed cadets yet. The cadet workforce is um incredibly important to us. It's a really important program and we're very focused in the transition planning around uh how we engage and support those cadetses and families in what the transition will be. Last Wednesday on the day of launch um my colleague chief of personnel uh engaged um uh w with the the cadet network and we've messaged extensively into that network and that will continue um uh in the weeks ahead. Um the the cadetses are are quite specific in this plan um in how we support them better as a youth program. Uh and we'll be engaging with units and families on where we propose to move them for a number um of existing cadet units. There there is a really firm plan in Jalong. A new multi-user dep depot will be their home. um in northern Tasmania. Um uh the plans for a new multi-user depot in Northland System will be the relocation point for a number. But what we're also really considering for the cadets and this will be a consultation is working with community groups and schools on more appropriate community facilities that are contemporary and better suited for a youth program. We've had some good success in this model in the last few years relocating um uh from the Konton drill hall to the Gisbon Secondary College through a lease arrangement. Uh similarly, we've moved cadets from the Warane depot in Tasmania which has been sold to homes Tasmania to um a leased facility out near the Hobart airport. These are contemporary facilities that they're really happy in. So, we've got a lot of flexibility here um to find solutions in community that keep cadetses close to where they parade now. And that's what we'll be working through with them um in the period ahead. Um for the rest of our population, I've described already, I think, the outreach that's already occurred to um ADF, APSN reserve members. Some of the sessions uh last night were quite late into the night so that in WA reserves could dial in uh when they're parading. um that will continue over this week. In addition, commandled conversations will now be occurring um around the intent of the reforms and how that will happen. And starting from next week, we will start on-site consultation at each of the sites with people on them. I think I described that number earlier as um 43 sites. That'll take a little while obviously. And in those consultations, Mr. West and his team will be supported by um defense [clears throat] defense people group who are our change and people experts and the service or group whose people are there. So senior leaders representing army, navy, air force, defense science and technology and so on and so forth will come to site and talk with staff about what that transition plan is. In some cases it's clear and published. In other cases, we will be working with those teams to help them understand the planning work that will still need to occur. Um, so those conversations start from next week.
That's great to hear. Um, where any of I assume you know many of these personnel have a posting kind of cycle at a particular place. So how will you manage relocations with those posting cycles?
>> Yeah. So as I said earlier, it is our intention to wherever possible use the natural posting cycle to affect the change and that's a rolling cycle. Obviously as I said there's about 1,500 permanent ADF um uh >> on currently serving on those sites. We do absolutely understand that over the period of time where we'll start moving from these sites there will be some requirements to move. We have a wellestablished process um for moves outside of um that posting cycle were where that necessary we'll seek to minimize this disruption and then we provide the additional supports for removals, housing and so forth. Um I've already spent quite a bit of time with my colleagues in Defense Housing Australia on that and and we feel well able to support that.
>> And just to confirm, do you expect there to be any job losses following on from the devestment of these sites? No, there
are no job losses planned. Um, we can accommodate all of these people at alternate sites and that includes our contracted workforce.
>> That's that's very very good to hear. Um, could you talk us through perhaps a little bit about how the devestment of these sites might help our serving men and women in the defense force?
>> Uh, thank you, Senator. As I've described this morning, this this work was very much uh undertaken to support the defense strategic review and our national defense strategy and to maximize our capacity to invest in the future infrastructure and facilities we need to support our people uh and the capabilities we're delivering for the future ADF as outlined in our integrated investment program. That's a substantial investment, but the cost of sustaining the legacy estate is substantial. uh and and the headline figures um of what we anticipate saving in the the the annual sustainment and the investment that would need to be made to continue to operate at these sites. Um I I think the deputy prime minister uh described yesterday last week at in the order of $2.5 billion uh into the future. We've got really good numbers on what it costs to sustain these sites each year. Um and and I would rather invest that money particularly on the vacant sites into where our people are living and working today.
>> Senator Adel Johnson, I might just add to that answer if I may for you. Of course, the strategic review and the national defense strategy reinforce the importance of Northern Australia >> and having the appropriate infrastructure. It is critically important that we have the facilities in place to be able to do the work that is needed to protect the country by operating ADF capabilities from Nordon, our Nordon infrastructure. So making sure we have the capacity and priority to enhance that infrastructure helps our people by giving them the tools and the equipment and enabling support they need for the task we're asking of them.
Thank you for that. Uh so it sounds like um there's quite an extensive plan for consultation for uh both permanent force APS members, reserves and cadetses. I'm wondering whether you've undertaken any consultants with RSLs or other veterans
groups. >> Yeah, thank you Senator. Um commencing [clears throat] last Wednesday, uh yes, uh Mr. met with the national president of the RSL on Wednesday and on Friday we undertook an initial briefing with ESOT the um with bringing together the peak veterans organizations with the department of veterans affairs. Those engagements are planned to continue uh in the weeks ahead. I also mentioned that we are planning community consultations at affected sites um and we will invite uh stakeholders and interested parties which would include veterans and veterans groups to those engagements in the coming weeks.
>> Okay, great. Um just a couple of brief questions on heritage uh on some of these sites if or do you want me to wrap up? Chair. All
>> No, no, thank you. I'm just mindful Senator Roberts just popped in. He's got a few questions before the break. So, I appreciate that. Thank Thank you very much, Senator Whiteaker. Now, Senator Malcolm Roberts, I'll give you the call till um 11:00.
>> Thank you, Chair, and thank you for appearing again today. Good morning. Um my question, well, we've heard today that people are important and that's reassuring. My understanding is that in the ADF, mchief and trust are strategic importance. the strategically significant and go to safety and trust. I' look I'd like to get to questions that relate to the way that the ADF has mismanaged the suicide of leading aircraftman Andrew Armfield and failed to provide him with the support he needed after his first suicide attempt in June 2011. Are you aware that the Royal Commission transcripts dated 6th of March 2024 and a ministerial background brief from the Deputy Chief of Navy Comer Ray Leot to Minister Matt Kio in October 2022. Copy to Vice Chief of Defense Force David Johnson and Chief Defense Force Angus Campbell warned of negative media risk if Mr. Duffield's story became public. But
Senator Roberts, of course, it is very difficult for us to talk about the individual circumstances as we have explained to you before. we can talk uh around the support that we are doing to improve suicide awareness, our proactive response to reducing the prevalence of it in the force. Uh Mr. Armfield circumstances were very much a part of the Royal Commission on defense and veteran suicides. But for officials to talk on the particular nature of his circumstances, there is very limited that we can say without his authority to do so. But if it is helpful for you to have officials come forward and just explain how we are responding to the type of circumstances that Mr. Armfield experienced and what we are doing to improve our response to it, be very happy to do so.
>> So I'll ask again because and and I'll point out that Mr. Mr. John Armfield has been involved in developing these questions. We got the data from him. He's happy for for us to talk about
>> Senator, that's might be true of what he's provided to you, but that's not an authority that we have from him.
>> So, I'll ask again. Are you aware that the you are copied as vice chief of defense force on this Royal Commission
>> I am aware of Mr. Arfield's transcripts.
Given that ministerial brief, do you accept that sworn Royal Commission evidence by then Vice Chief of Defense Force yourself claiming you are unaware of Mr. Armfield's situation was incorrect as he had been copied in?
>> Sorry, Senator, I'm just not clear on your question about which part do you mean that was incorrect? the ministerial
brief to chief def um minister Matt Kio in October 2022 that given that brief which you said you got do you accept that sworn royal commission evidence by by yourself claiming that he was you were unaware of Mr. Arfield's situation
>> my comment to you was I'm aware of the transcript of Mr. Armfield's evidence after the Royal Commission uh had occurred. I would have to go back to my own testimony of the evidence to be able to answer that question for you
>> because it's claimed that you were unaware of of Mr. Arfield situation, but you were aware.
>> No, Mr. Armfield appeared directly prior to me appearing as a witness. So, I heard his evidence. Uh I would have to check what the circumstances of that question are. So I heard the evidence that Mr. Arfield gave because he appeared immediately prior to me on the morning that I appeared at the Royal Commission. Senator, but if you allow me to go back and clarify the question you're asking to make sure I get the accurate response.
>> Fair enough. Uh at the time of leading aircraft man Andrew Humpfield's first suicide attempt in June 2011 was DI G 1626 a mandatory policy requiring a risk management team and is it accepted that no risk management team and no crisis management plan were ever established by Dr. Shesh Babu or Wing Commander Peter
>> So that you're asking me particulars of details of that set of circumstances. We would take them on notice and do our best to answer them for you.
>> Okay. I appreciate your desire for accuracy. Do you accept that by failing to comply with that mandatory policy, Defense structured oversight of uh leading aircraftman Andrew Andrew Armfield's care and therefore failed to discharge its duty of care regardless of treatment occurring in a civilian hospital. that
senator again I'm not in a position to answer the detail I just don't have sufficient knowledge of it I would I I would look at it but I would re state the importance and the amount of work that we have done to address suicide within the defense force and that with veterans after there are considerable initiatives and we have learned from each one of these tragic circumstances about how we need to change our policies the awareness of our people the proactive uh environment that we can provide in order to minimize the circumstances of suicide occurring. So that was a tragic set of circumstances and we are doing our best to learn from them and to change the environment to prevent suicide occurring within the force.
>> That's a nice broad fluffy statement and it's it's it's honorable, but I'd like a specific answer to that question if you could give it to me. I accept that you're putting yourself in a difficult position if you just answer off the cuff. So, we'd appreciate question on notice. >> Why did defense redact freedom of information material under sections 47E and 47F relating to statements by Flight Lieutenant Cara Miles, Commodore um Fiona Southwood, and Colonel Matthew Freeman. when an FOI review later revealed those redactions concealed faults and subjective statements portraying petty officer Armfield, that's the deceased's brother as and he's also the complainant, as dishonest or mentally unstable. Some of those statements were emailed 11 times to 14 commissioned officers, thereby damaging his professional reputation and shaping a false narrative to to protect
defense. So, Senator, again, I'm sorry. I just don't have that knowledge, but we will take it on notice.
>> Why did the Inspector General of ADF Assessment Report 2022 identified that Lieutenant Colonel Matthew Freeman conducted a factf finding investigation without the required investigator qualification, acted with bias, and exceeded his terms of reference by commenting on Mr. Arfield's mental health? That's the brother.
>> Sorry, Senator. What is the the question within what you've just presented?
>> Why did the inspector general of ADF assessment inspector general of ADF his assessment report 2022 identify that Lieutenant Colonel Matthew Freeman conducted a factf finding investigation without the required investigator qualification acted with bias and [clears throat] exceeded his terms of reference by commenting on Mr. Armfield's mental health. That's petty officer Armfield.
So the if your question senator is why did the inspector general of the ADF come to that conclusion that is best of course presented to the inspector general rather than to the department.
>> I'd like to know if what he said was true and you're aware of it.
>> I would have to take that on notice.
What authority or qualification did Commodore Banister rely upon to decide that Mr. Arfield's allegations of criminal conduct supported by ADF. Legal advice and reviewed by senior external lawyers were not referred to police or prosecutors.
>> Again, I will take it on notice. Senator
Petty Officer Armfield reported alleged breaches of Commonwealth law on the advice of an ADF lawyer to Commodore Fiona Southwood, Warrant Officer Navy Andrew Bertson, Captain Anne Andrews, Chief of Navy Mark Hammond, IGF, and the defense ombbudsman all were provided. The evidence process and policy was followed. If each officer deflected or claimed it was not their remit, who exactly does an enlisted sailor, soldier or air crew report allegations of criminal conduct to
within the ADF? Senator, that is one of the areas where we have extensively sought to enhance the options that are available to individuals of how they report. Some of them as you are referring to would be up through their leadership chain. But we have ensured that there are independent options that are outside of an individual's unit or command structure. So that in those circumstances where they feel more comfortable reporting externally, they have multiple options whether it is to military police, Inspector General of the ADF, we now have a centralized reporting mechanism where uh anony reporting can be made that is separate to the command chain. So we have ensured there are multiple pathways available to people when either they believe that reporting that they may have made to their leadership is not being enacted on or where they they are uncomfortable with reporting in that environment and they wish to be able to report external
to it. So, what I'm hearing, and correct me if I'm wrong, Admiral Johnson, what I'm hearing is that mandatory defense suicide management policy was not followed, that oversight failed, and you've made changes since, and that serious concerns raised by Petty Officer John Armfield, the deceased brother, when known to senior defense leadership and possibly yourself, while being denied under oath elsewhere. Is that correct,
>> Senator? That's not what I said with
respect. >> No, I wasn't saying what you said. what I've heard, what I've interpreted.
>> No, I didn't comment on the in individual circumstances of the case, but did explain what we have done. >> If your question is around that set of circumstances, I will need to take it on
notice. >> Okay. If you could take it on notice, please. >> Yes, Senator. >> And and I accept uh your correction there. We've heard that reputationally damaging material was withheld under Freedom of Information, that flawed and unqualified investigations occurred, and that allegations of possible criminal conduct were not referred despite legal advice. Is that correct, Senator? Again,
I I do not have that detail. I would
>> Thank you. Notably, the only person referred to law enforcement in this manner in this matter was the whistleblower himself who [snorts] was acting on the advice of an ADF lawyer and none of the officers whose conduct is now in question. Could you confirm or or uh correct that please?
>> I would have to take it on that.
>> so what I see Admiral Johnson is questions is is that um I don't see this as support for a whistleblower. its avoidance. It goes to the heart of inst in institutional integrity and accountability. And I look forward to your questions on answers to questions on notice because the public deserves the truth. Your officers and your enlisted people deserve the truth. Army, Navy, Air Force, and they deserve justice. Anything less confirms that protecting the institution still matters more than protecting those who serve it. And that's what I've seen being blunt for the last few years in Senate estimates. the senior uh brass of the ADF is not not standing up and providing the
>> So Senator I hope you have seen significant evidence that as we have already canvased this morning that people are critical to our capability that the work we are doing through implementing the Royal Commission recommendations within defense has a significant priority for us. The structure of support and the environment and culture that we are seeking to build both within the defense force and more broadly across defense is highly supportive of our people. There are circumstances in the Royal Commission was clear where we have let people down and we have acknowledged that and we have put significant effort and priority around doing everything that we can to change those circumstances.
>> Well, all right. We're going to wrap up
Johnson. I I look at the report from the uh inquiry into honors and awards and a clear recommendation that defense um put in place a more objective process and that was niched ned by the government. So I still don't see that desire for accountability and truth at the top of top of the Australian Defense Force.
>> Happy to come to you a bit later on today. Senator Malcolm Roberts. All right. All right, on that note, we're going to break for morning tea. I'll see everyone here about quart 11. All right, welcome back everyone. Um,