Senate Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Legislation Committee, , 3:38:55 to 4:08:37
DFAT officials provide a snapshot of Australia's diplomatic efforts, defending the 'judicious' use of sanctions and the maintenance of diplomatic representation. They address concerns regarding aid budget transparency, aviation fuel supply chains, and refugee repatriation.
Topics: DFAT, Human rights
Speakers: Kate Smith, David Shoebridge, Jessica Collins, Dean Smith, Speaker 23, Hon Sarah Henderson, Raff Ciccone
>> Uh, so for the handside record, could you please state your full names and the capacity in which you appear today?
Thank you, Senator Kate Smith, acting first assistant secretary of the Southeast Asia Regional and Mainland Division in the Department of Foreign
>> Andrea Zubberg, acting assistant secretary, Southeast Asia mainland branch, Department of Foreign Affairs
>> Thanks, Mr. Zubri. Do you have an opening statement?
>> I do, Senator. >> Thank you for the opportunity to address the committee as part of your inquiry into the state of democracy and human
rights in Myanmar. What I might do, Miss Smith, do you mind tableabling your opening statement just because we are so short of time?
>> Senator, I'm very happy to provide it through to the secretariat, but I have annotated it, so I prefer not to table it in its current form, but I can send it through immediately after the hearing if that is acceptable to you.
>> Yes, that is of course that's totally fine. Have you got haven't got an unanotated copy?
>> I do not. It looks like that.
>> And maybe just briefly the highlights the
>> Yeah, that's yeah, that would be fine.
give us a quick snapshot. Yes, >> of course. Um, we acknowledge, we know the situation is dire. Myanmar is the second most conflictaffected country in the world. Onethird of the population is in need of immediate humanitarian assistance. 3.6 million people are internally displaced. We have consistently condemned the regime's atrocities, ongoing attacks against civilians, including air strikes. We continue to support Azan's ongoing efforts to seek a peaceful resolution to the crisis, including those of the Recent elections were held amid ongoing violence and repression and without meaningful participation from opposition parties and in the absence of large sections of the population being able to participate. As the foreign minister said in her statement on the 1st of February, the elections did not meet the conditions for free, fair, or inclusive process. We have consistently called for the sessation of violence, the release of all those unjustly detained, safe and unimpeded humanitarian access, and inclusive dialogue among all stakeholders. And we look to the incoming Myanmar authorities to put in place measures that reflect Azan's five-point consensus. Genuine efforts that alleviate human suffering, improve economic, social conditions, and advance a sustainable resolution.
>> All right. Thanks very much, Miss Smith. I've got some questions to kick off. >> Certainly. Uh, what practical steps could Australia take in tandem with its international partners to strengthen enforcement of human rights in Myanmar without further exacerbating the
>> Thank you for your question, Senator. Um, as others have spoken to, it is a very complicated situation and it is um, uh, a situation that we discuss regularly with a range of uh, international counterparts. Um going to the very point that you raise. Um of course we continue to support formal uh accountability, international accountability efforts with respect to uh human rights violations and abuses including through the independent investigative mechanism uh for Myanmar. Um and we continue to raise the situation with respect to human rights in a range of um fora in addition to the statements that the um foreign minister has released uh on the 10th of Deceal statement on the 10th of December and the foreign minister's statement on the 1st of February. Um we have uh uh the we participated in the UN high level conference uh on Rohingya and the situation of other minorities in Myanmar in September. That was in New York and our ambassador and permanent representative uh James Lson delivered a statement in which we were expressing our continued concern um about the situation in Myanmar and the plans around the elections process. Um on the 25th of August last year, uh we released a departmental statement uh marking the 8th anniversary of the Myanmar military's attacks against the Rahinga. Um of course on the 1st of August, the foreign minister um was reported in the Australian with respect to comments she made urging the Myanmar regime to engage in genuine inclusive political dialogue with all stakeholders. Um and noting concern about the upcoming elections process. Um and on the 10th of June 2025 uh again ambassador Larsson delivered a statement uh expressing our deep concern at the regime's human rights violations sexual and gender-based violence and discrimination against minorities. So together with our efforts through Azan um we continue to seek all avenues and channels on which we can maintain uh uh attention on the situation and put pressure for um an improvement in
Just a couple more questions. Just if you could answer them. I'm so sorry to to ask you to be sus um to be brief, but we're just obviously running racing against the clock. How would you describe the effectiveness of Australia's sanctions against individuals and entities associated with the military regime in Myanmar? Um,
Senator, we have uh since the coup used our sanctions judiciously to um target those regime leaders responsible for deposing um the democratic uh government uh for uh repressing and committing violence uh towards the people of Myanmar and also to limit the regime's access to funds and military material that enable it to commit atrocities against its own people. And in this regard, um, I would draw the committee's attention to sanctions that were imposed on the 1st of February, 2024 with respect to limiting access to funds for arms and jet fuel. So on two regime controlled banks um that enable the purchase [clears throat] of arms and material and three Myanmar based companies that provide jet fuel to the Myanmar military on the 1st of February 2023. We of course imposed autonomous sanctions on those directly responsible for the coup and for the ongoing repression and violence in Myanmar targeting 16 members of the state administration council and two Myanmar military controlled entities. Um senator with respect to further uh sanctions measures um it will not surprise you that I will need to say that we do not speculate about future sanctions considerations or measures. So I'm a little bit limited in what I can say on that.
>> No, I appreciate that. I'll now hand over to Senator Shoebridge. >> oh, sorry, chair. Sorry, >> I'm so used to calling you chair or we can estimates. Uh, Senator Janei, I will. I didn't appreciate you. Got some questions. Apologies.
>> That's all right. Thanks, Chair. Um, hello. Uh, I just want to quickly ask, I know you touched on about statements, but just to for clarity, did Australia issue a statement to mark the fifth anniversary of the elections on the 1st of Feb?
>> Uh, yes, we did. Senator, the foreign minister issued a statement on the 1st of February uh marking 5 years uh since the coup.
>> Okay. And in terms of the content of that statement, just very briefly.
we noted of course that the people of Myanmar have endured escalating violence, widespread human rights violations, and severe humanitarian suffering. Um we noted that the crisis continued unabated. um the figures that I uh I outlined um a little earlier about the the sheer numbers of people in need in the country. Um the fact that the economy has contracted significantly. Um transnational and serious organized crime has flourished, threatening regional stability. Um concerns about elections uh were highlighted in that statement, noting that the conditions in which the elections occurred did not meet uh those for free, fair, and inclusive elections. Uh we repeated the fact that we've consistently condemned the regime's brutal and ongoing atrocities against the people of Myanmar, continue to judge the Myanmar military by its actions, continue to support Azan's five-point consensus as the framework for addressing the situation, and we urge its full implementation. statement also uh uh noted that Australia looks to the incoming Myanmar authorities to put in place measures that reflect the five-point consensus including sessation of violence, safe and unhindered humanitarian access without discrimination for all those in need and a commitment to genuine inclusive dialogue among all stakeholders called for the release of all those unjustly detained. Um the statement noted that Australia is ready to support genuine efforts to alleviate humans humanitarian suffering, improve economic and social conditions and advance a sustainable resolution to the ongoing crisis. And of course we continue to stand with the people of Myanmar sharing their ambitions for a better future.
>> Um it's fair to say that Australia's probably taken a public position on on elections on multiple occasions and you've obviously issued multiple statements. If you're in the same light, maybe take that on notice and just in light of time with what information you can provide the committee. Um, further to that, um, has Austral then regularly issued statements regarding the conduct of the regime?
>> Yes, we have, Senator, and, um, if you'd like further detail on that, I can take that on notice.
>> If you could, that would be great. Some of the flavor of those statements or any other further detail that you could provide. >> Um, and for clarity too, um, we don't have an ambassador in country. Is that right?
>> We are represented uh in Myanmar uh at Shaj Defair's level.
>> And why is that?
>> Um following the coup, the decision was taken that that was the appropriate level for our representation to be at.
>> And I'm assuming that's a standard process or normal um course of action for governments to take in these instances.
each each situation is of course considered on a case-by case basis for the decision was taken that that was appropriate in these circumstances.
>> All right. Thanks. Thanks, Chair. Uh
thank you very much Senator Juconei. Senator Schub
>> um thank you for that. Thank you for the submission. Um, I note the statement on one February about the election said they did not meet the conditions for free, fair, and inclusive elections. But we've heard a unanimous call from witnesses before here to to to make it very clear that not only was the process not free and fair, but the outcomes are illegitimate and and a call for the Australian government to clearly say they do not accept the outcomes of the election, nor do they accept the legitimacy of the government that's formed after the election. Um, will the Australian government clearly make that
Uh Senator uh the Australian government's position is clear that the elections process did not meet the conditions uh for free, fair or inclusive elections for the reasons that we've outlined. Um it would not be appropriate for me to speculate on further positions that the government
might take. Well, will you take on um whether or not given the elections were not free, fair um will you take on notice whether the government will then make the obvious conclusion from that >> that the outcome is is an illegitimate um government?
>> I can take your question on notice,
Senator. there is a there is a a very large gap between the breadth of sanctions that have been applied by for example the the European Union compared to the much narrower set of sanctions applied by Australia. Um that gap is in the financial space including failing to sanction the economic bank which is seen as very much a sort of workaround used by the Juna to um to get um financial support for the Juna but it's also the the almost complete absence in Australian sanctions of stateowned enterprises which is another critical way the Junda supports itself economically. Um can you explain why there is such a chasm between the comprehensive sanctions in the EU and the far narrower sanctions by Australia?
>> Senator, um it would of course be for my sanctions colleagues to speak in more detail about our sanctions frameworks, but um perhaps to say of course each country's uh sanctions framework and thresholds work slightly differently. So options that are open to some countries are not necessarily open to all countries. We keep our sanctions uh uh settings with respect to Myanmar under very close review. Um and as I've said, we're not in a position to speculate about um potential sanctions measures. uh but we do stay in close consultation uh with our um European and other uh like-minded partners on um uh respective sanctions um approaches um >> that work within the frameworks that we have to consider that
>> ju just given the time if you could provide some further detail explaining the discrepancies on notice and I also note that the parliament recently made very clear amendments so that um organs of the state and controlled by state can now be the subject of Australian sanctions and that happened in the context of Iran, but it would also apply to Myanmar. Can you can you confirm on notice whether or not those those amendments by parliament um removes any impediment to now sanctioned stateowned enterprises?
>> I'll take that on notice, Senator. Um, I
know your submission refers to the development cooperation fact sheet on aid which sets out that the aid being provided by Australia is actually um um is in the order of about $120 million. But again, pretty much every every witness we've heard has said they want to focus on Australian aid going not to the Juna or is, you know, through the JUNA, but on non-state actors and particularly those ethnic and other resistance movements that control about a third of Myanmar. Where is Australian aid going? Is it going through the Juna [clears throat] or is it going to those non-state actors? and and and will you consider re reshaping aid to prioritize non-state actors?
>> So, Senator, I can say that we have taken proactive steps to ensure that our aid is not going to the regime nor lends um the regime credibility um or legitimacy. That's been a very important aspect um of our program. Um I'll invite my colleague uh to speak uh uh in more detail about um the the aid aspects of
your question. Well, I I just know we've got very short amount of time. I know Senator Collins, so if you could be very focused on it.
>> Uh yes. Uh thank you, uh Senator. Um as uh Miss Smith uh has indicated, the Australian government has committed to quite a generous and uh important development and humanitarian program to the people of Myanmar. As you've referred to the fact sheet, in the last financial years, the Shan government has committed over $590 million in development and humanitarian assistance. So that's roughly about the uh third largest um development cooperation program we have in in Southeast Asia. Um uh as Miss Smith has has indicated, we do not provide uh our assistance to uh statebased actors. Uh and we take active steps to ensure that um our assistance is not provided uh to the regime. uh our assistance is provided to multilateral organizations including United Nations agencies uh organizations such as the Red Cross, international NOS's uh local uh NOS's all of these uh implementing partners have passed our uh due diligence requirements and there are reasons why we work with these organizations. I would also like to add Kaden to your point, Senator, um that while our assistance and I I' I've listened to some of the the previous evidence about um providing assistance to local organizations. Um so while our assistance is provided mainly to these uh larger organizations, they work with these local organizations including religious and ethnic based organizations on the ground to deliver uh our investments as sub partners and implementing partners. One thing I would like to add uh Senator due to the nature of the security situation in Myanmar is that we do not publicize our local implementing partners as you appreciate there are security concerns um that the staff of development organizations, humanitarian personnel uh face. Just
given the time, could I ask you to respond on notice in more detail to the positions put by the Myanmar Research Center and particularly by the Australian Baptist Ministries about delivery of aid through non-state actors um and reviewing some of the due diligence restrictions to ensure the aid is getting where it's needed. And could I also ask you to respond on on notice to um the question of increased aid to displaced persons particularly um in the um Cox's Bazaar refugee center uh refugee camps massive camps as well as the refugee um camps on the Thai Burma Thai Myanmar border. Um could you respond about the level of aid and whether or not Australia is intending to meet some of the gap that's caused as a result of US aid being withdrawn? If you could answer those things on notice.
>> Yes, we can take that.
>> And my final question is on notice, can you address the calls, repeated calls we've had for Australia to work bilaterally with Bangladesh, India, and Thailand to to to find new avenues for aid and support to come into resistance groups. >> Can we take those on notice?
>> Senator Schub, thank you so much, Senator Collins.
>> Uh, thank you, Chair. And um I I just want to uh I guess uh put on the record here uh that I understand that uh your sanctions uh future sanctions you won't be able to speculate on uh but I will be following very closely as to whether the central bank the private banks that are now facilitating force remittances uh for the tapador that's fueling this war uh will be uh uh followed up on through the sanctions framework and also So, as we've heard about today, supply chains of um materials coming into Australia that are being built that are building uh everyday goods for Australians uh particularly through the uh the teik uh Uh I want to follow on from the the funding gap that um Senator Shoebridge just raised. We have heard many many concerns of people on the particularly on the Tai Burma board, 100,000 people still there four decades later. uh they are terrified about this 18-month f funding gap uh from the Australian government. So if we can provide on notice whether the Australian government is actually going to be plugging that gap, whether that gap still exists and whether uh they will be funding that gap. Uh in terms of the the fear about funding for these uh refugee camps and to put displaced well for the refugee camps uh are you aware if the United Nations is trying to encourage people to repatriate and whether the Australian government is looking to uh increase its humanitarian resettlement from those
to clarify, you're talking about refugee camps on the Taiamar border and or the camps in Cox's Bazaar. >> I may have missed the the outset of your question. Sorry.
>> You can you can reflect on both. I'd like to have a a response on both of them, please.
>> Certainly. Um well uh obviously [snorts] take the the points on notice that you have raised um with respect to the the the plight of the Rahingas in Cox's we've committed over 1.26 billion in humanitarian assistance since 2017 to the people of Myanmar, the displaced Rahingas in Bangladesh and their host communities. This
>> just into sorry I'm not interested in the funding that's going there. I'm interested in the the future for them and whether uh they will they're being asked to the pressure to repatriate is real. They feel that. But their home is not ready to go back to. >> There are there are landmines. There are no services. It is very dangerous. There are air strikes. They are safer in these refugee camps. But the aid has been withdrawn and cut. And we have heard people here in Australia advocating for their people at And so my question is, is the Australian looking to help repatriate people, given them more funding, or help them come to
Senator, um when you say are we assisting to repatriate people, uh we we are not advocating for the repatriation of individuals into a dangerous situation. And if we
>> are you aware of the UNers,
>> the UNers,
>> are you aware if the UN is still encouraging people to repatriate?
>> Um I'd need to take that on notice, Senator. Thank you. the position that we very clearly put um most recently at the high level conference in September um which is a position that we have had uh is our consistent position um with respect to Rahinga um uh return into Myanmar. Of course, we would support that uh in conditions where it could be voluntary, safe, dignified and sustainable. Those conditions do not currently exist. Um and until that occurs, we will continue to support displaced Rahingas in Bangladesh. I appreciate that um uh the details with respect to the funding that we are providing uh most recently into um additional support for Rahinga's um in Bangladesh is uh something that perhaps um we can give on on notice rather than something that in the interest of time the committee wishes to hear about uh at the moment but that is certainly something that we are uh focused on and the additional uh $370 million three-year package which is um uh commencing this here uh really does take into account uh that ongoing uh dreadful situation in the camps uh in Cox's bazaar
>> but that's for the hinda not for the taurma border which has been there for 40 years
>> with respect to sorry senator I didn't mean to cut you off
>> that's okay uh that if we can if we can get notice of that funding funding gap
that would be great senator
>> um question on notice uh what the Australian government is doing to help dismantle the organized crime the transnational networks that are funding this war the scam exam centers particularly. Uh and one yes or no question is uh whether the government considers the whether the Australian government considers the current uh regime in uh Myanmar to be legitimate prior to the election. Thank you.
>> Thanks Senator Collins. Sorry, that's
just a yes or no answer.
>> No, I just want to go to Senator Smith first.
>> Can I can I just have a yes or no answer on that question? It's just a yes or no. So, prior to the election, does it did the Australian government consider the regime in Myanmar to be legitimate?
Senator, uh we have a long-standing position of recognizing states, not governments, but uh the position that the Australian government has consistently taken uh with respect to the regime uh really underscores our concern about um the way in which they deposed a democratically elected government came to power and have been um acting with respect to the people of Myanmar since that time.
>> Thanks, Senator Collins. uh Senator Schub to you briefly noting we have to finish at 10%.
>> I I did ask about the development cooperation fact sheet but could you provide to the committee a breakdown of how much of the current aid budget is going through um areas controlled by the juna >> as far as you understand it and how much of it is going to areas controlled by non-state actors in the other third of the um um of the country um if you could provide that on notice. Um >> I [clears throat] know it might be difficult because some of the programs but to the best of your ability
>> uh yes Senator we will we will we will try um our best uh as I indicated earlier we do need to be careful about uh how much information we release in terms of how much we fund and where we fund and who we fund for the safety of not um inadvertently identifying and putting at risk our implementing partners. But our funding does reach every uh province in Myanmar and that includes the regime control as well as the non-regiment
>> with as much granularity as you can without putting anyone at risk.
>> Thank you, Senator.
>> Thanks, Senator Schub. Senator Smith.
>> Thank you very much. I just make the observation that of course um private uh briefings from officials to the committee are an option in which uh sensitive information can be shared uh with senators as a way of building and maintaining our confidence in regards to uh the government's approach to this and other issues. Am I correct to say that previously there was a Myanmar Myanmar task force in the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade? And if there was, does the task force still continue?
>> Uh, Senator, yes, there was a Myanmar task force that was stood up in response to um the coup. Um, with respect to specific time frames, that's not detail that I have in front of me. Um the task force uh is um no longer exists in name as such uh but we have a dedicated uh Myanmar uh capability within the department across both the Myanmar political section and the Myanmar development section. So we have um two sections looking at two key uh uh elements of the ongoing crisis in the department. It is no longer badged as a task force but that is where the capability sits.
Does the department recognize how important disrupting the importation of aviation fuel is as a means to cail the success of the regime in continuing violence against civilians?
>> Yes, Senator. Um and uh we spoke a little bit earlier about the sanctions that Australia applied focused on um stemming jet fuel supply in February 2024. Um we're also very conscious that um other partners have put um complimentary sanctions on with respect to the supply of aviation fuel. Those are settings that remain um under regular review.
Are the effectiveness of those sanctions assessed and have they been assessed to be effective or ineffective as it relates specifically to the importation of aviation fuel?
>> Senator, I can take that question on notice.
>> Thank you. In uh a line of questioning I pursued earlier, I identified a Reuters report >> that um detailed cooperation between the Iranian regime and the Burmese regime in regards to the existence of two vessels >> importing aviation fuel um into Myanmar. one of those vessels is sanctioned and based on my inquiry I can't see a sanction on the second one on notice could you just now if necessary and perhaps this is what we might pursue as a next step as a committee more generally uh is to seek a more detailed but private discussion briefing with the department about the sanctions regime um and then finally Finally, if you could just um provide to us um details of how the government is engaging with Myanmar neighbors, India, Bangladesh as a as a way of well in order to try and facilitate a um an alternative um in addition to um the AAN mechanism. So I might just leave Oh yeah, I might just leave it at that and uh just thank you very much for your uh continued cooperation and attention to these matters which are you know top of mind which are the top of mind for many Australians but not least of course those of Burmese heritage in our country.
>> Of course. Thank you Senator. I take those questions on notice. Thank you
very much, Senator Smith. And that uh concludes our hearing today. Thank you so much for appearing as witnesses. We do very much appreciate it. And again to all witnesses for accommodating our truncated time schedule. The committee would appreciate it for responses to questions on notice are provided by Friday the 27th of February 2026. Uh thank you again to all witnesses who appeared to Hansard and to broadcasting and to the secretariat for your assistance. The committee stands