Senate Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Legislation Committee, , 4:10:13 to 4:27:17
The discussion focuses on consumer transparency at the point of sale and a direct appeal to the Foreign Minister to close the refining loophole.
Topics: Trade policy, National security
Speakers: Kateryna Argyrou, David Shoebridge, Andrew Mencinsky, Dean Smith, Hon Sarah Henderson
>> Thank you very much, Senator Naima Price. I'll now go back to Senator Smith who has I think one more question.
>> Thank you. If fuel retailers in Australia were obliged to dis disclose to Australian consumers that the motoring fuel that they were purchasing um contained uh Russian crude. How do you think Australian consumers would react to that if there was a obligation to disclose um at the bowser uh at the till uh that their purchase contained uh Russian crude um or was at risk of containing Russian crude. How would that change the behavior of Australian consumers, do you think? And how would that change the behavior of importers?
I think uh consumers would certainly act and uh speak with uh with their feet with their wallets. Um from the conversations that we've had and we've done a lot of advocacy over the past year, we've engaged with a lot of different organizations. A lot of Australians just provided feedback, especially when this became a front page issue on the Sydney Morning Herald when they started running their blood oil series. Um we had we were just inundated with messages through our contact email on Facebook on social media saying name and shame the importers because we want to boycott them. The Australian public feels very strongly about this and you can just see that in the amount of media coverage. Um if it was a topic or an issue that was fleeting or people didn't care about it wouldn't have s it wouldn't have resonated. so widely and we're not just talking about, you know, Andrew and I are based in Sydney, but we've had people contact us from WA, from South Australia, from Melbourne, going to these um terminals, whether it's at Apollo or whether it's at Viva and Jalong and attending uh protests there just to show that this is not okay and this is not just our community. this uh campaign in terms of closing the sanctions loophole and to stop the import of blood oil probably has resonated the most with uh everyday Australians and the general Australian public in my experience working in the Ukrainian community um over the past decade.
>> I absolutely concur. I've had numerous discussions with numerous people and I do a fair bit of work in regional New South Wales and so you know these are not inner city elites and when I tell them that every time they fill up a tank of petrol for their generally their utes that they're giving $13 to Moscow they are in shock and the first question is where are the retailers that I can buy nonRussian fuel. I was at a book launch and this was for inner city elites and someone made the point and we were talking about oil and someone asked the question and said who in this room would even pay more to use nonRussian oil and 80% of the room put their hands in the air and said we would do anything just to not use Russian oil. So I think Senator that idea to name and shame and to have disclosure at point of sale would be an excellent one. And I dare say you would find that would generate very rapid change from the retailers.
>> Not my idea but an idea because when when an Australian consumer goes to the bowser uh they are directed for their safety and for the efficiency of their motoring vehicle to a diesel fuel outlet to a unleted 91 fuel outlet. So in terms of protecting uh consumers from the shame of uh unknowingly or unwittingly um participating in Russia's aggression in Ukraine. That could be a simple um regulatory intervention um if that was necessary or at least a public awareness campaign um from all those people who are you know sponsored and supported by all those people who have made submissions to um to this inquiry. But I think we've I think we've made the point for those people that might be uh listening that there are alternative mechanisms that might prove that might fill a bit of a gap while the sanctions regime um updates itself or responds to um you know inquiries such as uh such as this one. But again, thank you very very much for your support and Australians stand uh united in their support of Ukraine. Thank you.
>> Uh thanks Senator Smith. I just wanted to clarify in terms of Russian oil coming from third countries. Have you been able to estimate how much oil is coming into Australia and what impact that that would have have on fuel
>> We're not experts in that. So we haven't conducted our own research on that. But we do rely on the research that has been conducted by Korea >> as uh as as experts in the field.
>> Yeah. And we are going to hear some expert evidence on that. But have you had any insights at all into that issue?
>> It would be speculation or not speculation but it would be maybe relatively uninformed commentary. I I do recollect a statistic of 8% of oil coming from India. However, I'm sorry. I we can maybe take that as a question on notice if if you prefer.
>> Uh yes, that would be terrific if you could. You you you talked about a boycott of Russian oil from third countries. Are you again are you calling for that boycott? Is is that just to be clear, is
position is for Australia to stop importing refined Russian crude from any third country or or refinery that deals with Russian crude and uh sends the fuel products to Australia. Um that's that's what we're trying to do whether it's through a sanctions framework which would be um best case scenario in our opinion because it sets very clear rules and a level playing ground for everyone. But to Senator Smith's um comment, even if we have the very basic uh requirement of full disclosure, I think uh without um putting massive restrictions in place, I think consumers would decide for themselves. But we don't even have um that basic level of um regulation, if you will. So if if that could be taken as a first step and consumers can show um how they decide to vote and what they decide to do uh then I think uh the Australian public will will speak loud and clear about that. But uh since we're here um speaking to a Senate committee and in terms of what uh Senate can do and the Australian government can do uh our position is to set the framework for Australian fuel importers uh to operate in line with uh Australia's support for Ukraine and Australian values in terms of supporting democracies.
>> I'm sure Foreign Minister Penny Wong's office is tuned in right now to this hearing and to your evidence. uh what would you say to the foreign minister in terms of changing the law to stop this importation of Russian fuel oil via third parties, third countries?
>> What I would say to Minister Wong is first first of all, thank you for the tireless work of her team and uh of her um Minister Wong visited Ukraine. Minister Wong saw the uh terrible destruction caused by Russian missiles. She visited um a power plant toky which was half of it was destroyed, the other half was using Australian provided coal at that time. Um so she saw firsthand the type of support that Australia provides what it does and on the other hand the level of destruction caused by uh Russian missiles and Russian attacks. So my only ask would be to put a framework in place that protects those same children that Minister Wong visited and saw in Ukraine with a charity, if I'm not mistaken, called Nova Ukraine. Uh that protects Ukrainian children that have been studying in bunkers for almost four years now. um the people that are currently sitting in negative temperatures of minus20 without any heating, light, electricity or running water because Russia keeps attacking them and Australia should not be contributing to the finance of those bombs, missiles, drones that cause such immense destruction that cause such immense suffering. And in terms of what Australia can do, this is the single largest thing that would change the course of the war. Um, and it's all within the power of the foreign minister's office. So, I thank her for the work that's done to date, for the support that's been provided, for the advocacy that's done through the Pacific region, because I know that Minister Wong is a huge advocate of Ukraine and does a lot of work um to to advocate for Ukraine in the region. Um and I would just ask to have that political will to close the sanctions loophole.
>> Thank you so much. I will now hand over to Senator Schub.
>> Oh, thanks chair and and thanks um for both of your organizations tireless work and Karina, you know, you I've seen your work consistently over the years and done. It's tireless. Um, it it is when when the will of the Australian people is to help the people of Ukraine and then it threw a loophole, we're actually giving more money to Russia um than we are to the Ukraine. That is obviously, you know, that's the core problem here, isn't it? It's not reflecting the will of the Australian can I just you talk about two things? One is transparency and the other one is actual sanctions. Have you been had it explained to you what the barrier is to putting in just matching what the EU and UK have done? What what the factual barrier is?
>> No. And um Senator Shver, thank you for your question and and your support and meeting with us whenever we ask. Um it's it's very much appreciated by our community. Um, in terms of uh understanding the reasons why, the only thing that we've heard is that initially it's too hard to track and trace. Then we need to wait for the EU and and partners to show us the blueprint of how to implement it. Aside from that, I don't know I don't know um why there hasn't been that political will just to get it done. As Andrew Andrew mentioned uh earlier in in his remarks, um this is not something that needs to be bulletproof and perfect from from the onset, it's something that can be done incrementally. It can be tweaked and changed and uh amended and improved. Um and as we know, Russia doesn't stand still either. They they're they always try to find ways that um they can benefit and uh they don't work in in ethical ways. So things that we would normally think about um they just deal in different ways. So it's not something that needs to be ironclad from the beginning. We just uh are hoping for a little bit of action and um and a little bit of that political will just to set the uh the wheels in motion. Um and to to answer your question, I don't know I don't know why um more hasn't been done
you, Andrew, but um in fact, the worst thing you could do probably is pretend you could get a solution even if it worked in February of 2026 and set and forget. We've seen Russia use multiple different corporate vehicles um um directing other sort of, you know, third parties who they have arrangements with to try and evade sanctions. I think we can assume that whatever we do, Andrew, there will be efforts to avoid sanctions and therefore we should put in place at the strongest possibility possible platform we can now and then continue to monitor it. Should that be part of our recommendations?
>> Absolutely. We are dealing with a hostile and with a cunning adversary that will is constantly thinking about how to circumvent sanctions that are being placed upon it. uh set and forget has not worked for us at this point for Australia and a strong recommendation should be quarterly reviews of the sanctions regime to identify where Russia is avoiding and circumventing that sanctions regime and then identifying the tweaks or not even the tweaks tweaks wholesale refinements that need to be made to ensure those ongoing
the world refinements. It's entirely proper Andrew. But um the um uh but also in doing that I I think we shouldn't pretend that DEFAT has all the knowledge or has all the answers. If there is going to be a task force, well then engaging with big Ukrainian representations, engaging with um the diaspora that sometimes has a far better insight and knowledge um than is held in the department that task force should be open to representation. Do do you think that would make it stronger?
>> Of course. um the people like Katarina and myself and many other Ukrainians live and breathe this on a daily basis and are in constant contact with people in Ukraine that are bearing the brunt of this and are also dealing with people in Ukraine that are also working on and see what Russia is doing. So we would be an invaluable source of grassroots information that could assist um you know and and with all respect a bureaucrat in Canra that doesn't feel this the way that we do.
>> Yeah. Now, I'm a green senator, so in my perfect world, I'd never buy fuel. It'd all be electric and windmills and loveliness. But I have a plug-in hybrid and I have to buy fuel for my car. I don't want my money, my family's money going to fund the war Russian war machine. Is there any way that with the amount of information that's available in the public domain that people like myself, millions of other Australians who don't want to be contributing to Russia's war efforts, is there any way we can make sense of that when we're making our purchasing decisions um at a service fashion? Katarina,
>> I don't think there is at this point. Well, the closest serving service station to me is BP. And I know that BP is on that list. But I don't know if I'm going and filling up my tank with fuel from a company that imports from Jamnagar, Reliance, India, or whatever. I don't have that certainty. If there was a level of disclosure, absolutely. I would drive that extra mile. I would uh go out of my way to go and fill up my tank with something that's not financing uh a war regime.
>> Senator Shoebridge, Australians are either unwittingly or unwillingly funding the Kremlin's genocidal acts against Ukraine and that really is the nub of the problem. And I know that the chair of the committee asked what message I could give or we could give to DEFAT and uh the Minister for Foreign Affairs. And I think if I was to give my 15-second elevator pitch, that would be it. Close the loophole so that Australians do stop unwittingly and unwillingly contribute towards genocide against the Ukrainian people.
>> Yeah. Well, thank you. Thank you, B. I think that's that I hope that's the message that DEFAT the Minister for the Government is getting. Australians don't want to be fueling the Russian war machine and everything we can do to stop that is urgent and essential. Thanks very much.
>> Uh thank you very much, Senator Schub, and thank you very much to both of you for your evidence today. Uh if you could return any questions on notice to the committee by Friday the 27th of February, 2026. Again, we thank you sincerely for all your effort to make your submissions and to come before us today. Thank you.
>> Thank you, Chair.
>> I think I thank you for the opportunity.
Uh we will now suspend for afternoon tea and resume in 15 minutes.