Senate Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Legislation Committee, , 3:44:43 to 3:56:59
Air Force officials describe recent drone incursions at RAAF Base Williamtown, the methods of detection, and the standard security protocols used in response.
Topics: Public safety, National security, Infrastructure
Speakers: Speaker 23, James Paterson, Celia Perkins, Meghan Quinn, Unknown Speaker
>> Thank you. Um I have uh questions about counter uncrrewed autonomous systems. Um while any relevant officials are coming forward, um I want to note and welcome the government's introduction of new legislation to deal with this issue of uh drone incursions uh on Australian bases. Um subject to an appropriate parliamentary inquiry, the opposition is strongly supportive of bringing this legislation forward in a timely way. It's critical that our men and women on our bases have both the capability and the legal authority to safely bring down uh any drones that are uh coming onto or as you know, there's been a number of media reports about these incursions. Um one public report says there's been 147 in incidents of drones flying onto or over active bases over the past year. in in particular Raph Williamtown's attracted uh significant media interests. Um starting with Raf Williamtown, what can defense say in this forum about the reported drone incursions between the 11th and 13th of >> at Raf Williamtown the incidents?
>> Senator Air Marshall Chapel, Chief of Air Force, sorry, can you just give me those dates again, please?
>> Uh I think it was the 11th and 13th of
>> Uh so Senator, thanks for your question. the there were a number of in of drone incursions uh over that period at RAF base Williamtown. Uh if I could broadly characterize them, they were uh detected uh visually, not uh not often on sensors. We have sensors at each of our air bases uh that detect most drones. Again, it depends on the technology being used. Uh but there were a number of drones uh over that date period. They were monitored and tracked by our personnel at Rap Base Wound. They were reported uh and uh and uh appropriate um measures were taken by the personnel on the base uh given the authorities we we had at the time.
>> Yep. Can you explain why it would be the case that it wouldn't be detected by the um current equipment on bases and had to be you know visually identified?
>> Uh it depends um is the short answer senator to that question.
>> You can give a longer one if you like.
>> I I will give some uh I guess characterization. It depends on a number of factors. It depends on how it's being operated. Uh it depends on um the uh OEM the original >> uh manufacturer of the equipment. It depends on the technology being used to control it. It depends on our sensors and the technologies they're using to detect it. It depends on the data base libraries in those sensors also um to uh characterize them correctly and therefore maybe display them uh on the detection system. So it could be that there was a mismatch in the technologies on those particular days. It could have been that they were being operated in the way that uh um the sensors were unlikely to have detected and it was just going to be a visual pickup.
Can you confirm in this particular incident how many drones were visually
>> Uh I don't have those numbers on those dates with me, Senator. I can look to try and get those back to you over the course of today. Um but uh there were occasions where we had a single drone detected and monitored by our personnel or the sensors or both. Uh, and there are one or two occasions where there was more than one UAS system operating over Williamtown of a night.
>> And New South Wales Police is investigating these incidents, are they
>> We are in close uh contact with the rest of our defense stakeholders, not least security and estate group and the New South Wales Police >> on these matters and other appropriate agencies.
>> And what can you say about the progress
the New South Wales police investigation would be matter for New South Wales police. What I can say is we're continue to work very closely with New South Wales Police and the rest of the defense and other agency stakeholders on both uh either investigating drone incursions or uh looking to work together to detect and um respond, deter uh or um uh find out the find the individuals who might be operating the drones and and have the police take appropriate
actions. To your knowledge, has the person or people responsible for this been identified by police
>> for those dates? Uh, Senator, no, I am not aware.
>> Yeah,
>> that'd be a matter for the Wales Police
>> and and so if it's the case that they haven't been identified and my understanding is the drones were not able to be taken down for reasons we'll discuss in a minute. their motivation is is unknown at this
We do not know um and have not no one has apprehended said individuals on those dates, Senator. So yes, we would not know their motivations.
>> In simple words, we don't know if this is a silly teenager or something much more nefarious.
>> No. And we we don't know that. Um we do know that the incidents of uncrrewed aerial systems around defense bases as elsewhere have increased as technology has gone up. So we have seen a significant increase over the recent years in identified uncrrewed aerial systems across the whole uh estate. >> Um and that is one reason why we've moved to um update regulations and the government's moved with legislation.
>> Indeed. Um it's an offense though, isn't it? To fly a drone above a military
>> Uh there are a number of different legislation uh that apply here. One of them is a Civil Aviation Act as well, Senator. So um there are a number of offenses that might be applied or might be related to flying drones over either defense bases, defense air bases or other airfields around Australia. The bottom line is that the information for drone operators in Australia if I may is very simple to come across. You can literally Google or otherwise search know your drones with Kazzer and it's very very clear uh what the obligations are on the individual operators of UAS systems around any airfield defense airfields
>> and I'm not sure if it's the case with ref William but certainly there are facilities where there are quite large signs that say you should not fly a drone in this area.
>> Those are correct and I' I'm sure one of my colleagues could you expand on that signage uh and the the additions that have been put in place over the over the
months. Uh Senator Paterson, Sydney Perkins, Deputy Secretary Security and Estate. As we've been as the secretary said, noticing um a significant increase in drone activity. Uh we have been very concerned to work not just on the the capability uplift, but understanding the nature of this is a global challenge uh and an Australian challenge. uh we do work very closely with our partners uh in police forces, the AFP and state police force to understand the problem and the capabilities to respond uh and the intelligence community around what what we are seeing um and what might be driving activity. What we do know is that there is a really high prevalence of ownership um just in the general community. Sure. Um, and one of the important pieces of work we've done over the last year closely with CASSA is, as you mentioned, not just signage, particularly around our air bases that make it clear to plane spotters and enthusiasts that it's it's it's not okay, but letter box drops in um those areas around our um air bases. And we want to stay really engaged with the community to understand that it is um it is harmful. Uh it is uh disruptive and potentially dangerous. and we're very concerned to understand the difference between silly teenagers and a higherend
>> Okay, thank you. Um, is it true as the Daily Telegraph reported that in this instance of these incursions that personnel were told to close the blind in respon close the blinds in response to the drone incursions?
>> Senator, I saw that news reporting and I think there's a much more important and broader point to make there. We um have a national system of emergency response procedures and security procedures that we practice annually. Uh and it's really important for all our people all around the country on a site that when an event occurs, we have a standardized way to respond. So we've modeled those over many years on the Australian New Zealand counterterrorism um uh coordination committee models for emergency responses, lockdown procedures, escape hotel procedures. you may be familiar with and it is a standard response when we alert an incident on a base. Um you'll appreciate you've visited many of them. Our bases are often largely geographically dispersed in many buildings. The alarm will sound. Individuals won't necessarily know what the event is. But these standard protocols that we use are designed to keep people safe no matter what the incident is. Closing curtains is great because you'll appreciate we started these emergency procedures and we've embedded them uh on the A&Z CTC model really in a counterterrorism paradigm. Um so if you were for instance facing an active shooter that would feel quite different to uh many other events that might occur. So it's standard protocols easy to repeat understood by all our people rehearsed uh on an annual cycle on site so we get a good consistent response.
>> Sure. And and the point about active shooter is like self-evident and I I recognize that. But this wasn't an active shooter. It was a drone. And
>> I I guess the point, Senator, is that the siren goes off and the same procedures are uh are activated. Um individuals don't necessarily know what the incident is.
>> No, but presumably the person who's conveying the instruction knows and so was a specific instruction I mean you can tell me maybe it wasn't the case, but was a specific instruction given to
close the blinds? Uh so it would have it uh that there would have been an an instruction that there was a security incident and people would have followed protocols
>> right so they were not told close the blinds that was not a specific instruction that was given
>> closing the blinds senator is a standard part of the
>> that's not my question whether it was there a specific instruction given
>> I couldn't speak to what happened to at Williamtown but it is a stand I was
>> I'm not interested in the generality I'm interested in this specific incident so I I I do want to understand was that instruction specifically given in this instance.
>> So we can take it on notice the spec like the the the sequence but the if the normal pro procedures were followed which I would u presume is the case is there would have been a notification to those on base that there was a security incident they would have followed the normal procedures um because there is usually not uh additional information provided at that time. People just follow the usual procedures. So we can take this specific on notice but the idea that people would close the blinds is standard procedures. would take on notice if there was any variation from the communication um but it would be unlikely but we were happy to check it.
>> Okay. Thank you.
>> Sorry if I can add Senator. It may well be that someone was reminding a colleague to follow the normal protocols. And I'm just as chief of air force, I'm >> very comfortable uh and uh pleased that our members, whether they're aviators, APS or indeed soldiers and sales might be on RAF Base Williams on that particular day that they would both comply with the standard protocols, would remind each other if a standard protocol had not been followed in some case. and also from a safety and security point of view drones wise that those that protocol would be followed for very good safety and security reasons with drones over the boat.
>> Sure. But we obviously need a much more robust way of protecting our people and the things they're working on than closing the blinds
>> and and that is in train
>> indeed. So um chair I'm just seeking your indication on timing. I've got further questions in this area if that's okay. Yep. So is it it's been publicly reported that there have been 147 incidents like this Australiawide on a basis. Is that number accurate or do you