Senate Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Legislation Committee, , 8:25:19 to 8:34:31
Investigation into a media leak regarding budget assessments and the use of the Sensitive Issues Protocol (SIP) to manage highly sensitive information.
Topics: Integrity, National security
Speakers: David Shoebridge, Meghan Quinn, Speaker 20, Robert Chipman, Mark Hammond
individuals?
>> There has been a notification of a potential breach of obligations. Uh and so uh a notification has gone into our in into our system and um an investigation has commenced. Yes. And
did you order that investigation secretary?
>> Uh no the investigation we have a process uh where uh if there's a suspected breach uh there's a notification and then there's an identification of whether there has or hasn't been a breach and then investigation. So um
>> so who ordered the notification then?
>> Uh so the notification was made from the uh vice chief defense forces group.
Um well then Admiral Hammond did were you aware that the notification was going out which is the first step in commencing an investigation.
>> So I I was aware that there would be a process because I read the newspaper article and um it quotes defense staff uh talking about matters that are for matters for internal. So I was aware there was going to be a potential but the formal the formal start of the process is around the people who hold
the information. So who who pressed go on the notification? Who who authorized
>> the person who the person who owns the um information set?
>> So who you said it was in the vice chief of defense >> who did it?
>> So I'll ask the vice chief defense force to to come and respond to that. But as the secretary said it's an automatic process. If there is an allegation that someone inside the department has leaked information there is a process that's automatically triggered.
I said air marshal Rob Jin vice chief of the defense force. So we we had set up what we call a special informations protocol around the information that we around the process of of budget assessment that the secretary has described that was administered by head of force design major general Matt Pierce. When there was a a suspected breach of that security protocol then he lodged a form called XP188 which is a security violation. That form goes to security and estate group and and it is racked and stacked against their priorities but we understand that the it will be prioritized and there will be an investigation launched from security and a state group.
>> Can you tell me more about this special information? Did you say special information protocol?
>> It it is simply a mechanism to to ensure we understand who is briefed into information so that if there is a leak then we can identify who's had access to
that information. And and what was what was the the special information protocol? What was the subject matter of the special information protocol?
>> It was an assessment of our budget.
>> So the and is is is the um is that separate to or the same as the processes that the secretary has been discussing?
>> It it was supporting exactly the process that the secretary has described. And
who are who is who has been undertaking this assessment of the budget?
>> So uh we have different components of the department that analyze the budget. Uh that we have the uh cap we have different lenses. So there's the capability lens, there's the delivery agency lens and then there's a financial lens.
>> All right.
>> So it's always those three areas that do uh and including the services as well um in terms of uh working through the uh VCDF group. would
>> so
>> so that's a process that happens every year and multiple times within the year
>> um and last year was there a special information protocol for this as for this process
>> uh I think there well we just check on the timing you mean at this time last year there would have been at some point during the last year
>> well it would have because we were building the integrated investment program last year so it would be my expectation if that is not the case I'll come back to you senator
>> all right And so be because you why was there a why was there one last year? There was a special reason for
>> because we were building the integrated investment program.
>> Okay. But um was the rationale then so that that was a specific and different thing that was happening. That's why you put a special and I assume special means it's not regular >> information protocol in place. Well,
it's routine for us to do this where we seek to control information and understand who has access to the information. So, I think we're up to 25 occasions since we've been doing and we've only been doing this procedure for about 2 years.
>> so so it's it's not a regular thing when you're just doing your standard annual budget review. When you're doing your standard annual budget review,
>> well, we've only been doing this arrangement since 2024. Happy to come back to you. Um my expectation is we'd be putting the same arrangements on any any kind of budget processes particularly if we're going to uh going this this time there's the extra element where we're looking at the arrangements uh for the creation of the delivery agency.
>> So so it it wasn't clear to me from your answer secretary who is covered by this special information protocol.
>> It would have been all staff involved in all staff involved in elements of the process would have had visibility. There's updates that we do for the mid-year economic and fiscal outlook. Uh there there in particular um there would be individual people who know individual projects and individual programs which would probably not be covered because they would be asked for specific information but as you aggregate information up uh to a greater level then the security requirements get tighter. Uh and so that is the process that the department has used in the
past. Um, and are there does the implementation of the special information protocol does it does it um does it potentially expose people to any additional penalty or is it an information? No, it doesn't. >> So you can track people down and track
>> It doesn't it doesn't Everybody who works in the Department of Defense has the obligations under their employment which go to the security clearances and official uh secrets act etc. Uh there are occasions where information certainly when it's aggregated um it becomes more sensitive and depending uh on the security obligations we we do seek to control the information more
>> and you said that it been this this pro this concept of a special information protocol was conceived in 2024. Is that right?
>> That's it was prior to my time but that's I understand it has only been in place for
>> and it's been used on 25 occasions. Can you identify if it is 25, if it's more or less the 25 or more or less occasions and what they applied to? And I more than happy to that for that to be taken on notice unless you have all 25 of them
>> Senator John Reed, Deputy Secretary Governance. Um the uh we fall into defense's threeletter acronym uh whirlpool. Um the the SIP um it's been referred to uh this afternoon is the sensitive issues protocol. Um it was developed uh around 2024. Um I don't have to hand how many times it has been used. It's used in a range of different ways to manage particularly sensitive uh matters across the
>> M just to stop you one second. The the term that I had heard before was special
was a mistake, Senator. There are many
acronyms.
>> There are many acronyms. There are many acronyms. It is It is known within the department as the SIP, the SIP.
>> All right. But they're the same thing.
>> They are the same thing, Senator. Yes. Um, so it is a sensitive issues protocol. Um, it was developed about 2 years ago. It's used across the department to manage particularly sensitive types of information of a range of kinds whether they're capability or operational or policy where they need to be particularly protected and restricted to a smaller number of people. Uh it it involves putting in place a register of all those who have access to that information um and controls on that information depending on on on what that particular compartment looks like. Um those controls might be hard copy only distribution of information. Uh they might be um restrictions on various emails. Uh as the vice chief of the defense force has said this this particular SIP um as I'm as I said I'm not sure which number it was uh was put around the process that the vice chief was running this year.
>> Um that's been helpful. Mr. Reid, could you then take on notice? It may be 25 more or less, but the the the number of projects slash activities that have been the subject of a SIP um well actually the is each one a separate SIP? Are they numbered?
>> They are separate.
>> All right. So, the numbers of SIPs, the number of SIPs, the dates of SIPs, if you can, and um the the subject matters that they applied to.
>> We'll take that
>> or projects, however best described.
>> We'll take that on notice.
>> Thank you. Excuse me, Senator. Um this was SIP 26. It is to my knowledge the latest SIP that has been established.
>> I'd say there's probably been in the order of 26 of them then.