Senate Finance and Public Administration Legislation Committee, , 7:40:02 to 8:10:08
Inquiry into the National Australia Day Council, the Port of Darwin commitment, and the implementation of antisemitism training in the APS.
Topics: National security, Antisemitism, First Nations
Speakers: Hon Michaelia Cash, Hon Penny Wong, Greta Doherty, Malcolm Roberts, Blair Exell, Andrew Walter, Elly Lawson, Karen Grogan, Kerren Crosthwaite, Richard Dowling, Speaker 51
>> Thank you, Chair, and thank you for attending again. Good afternoon, Minister. National identity is important. I'm sure you'd agree. It's it's one of the core issues for any country, national identity. Could you please explain why the website for the National Australia Day Council does not show the Australian flag? Does the government or the prime minister believe the Australian flag is not appropriate to the celebration of Australia Day?
So which website sir?
>> The National Australia Day Council.
>> I think they appear separately. Senator, I'm not trying to be difficult. Um
>> No, no, I understand that. But um you're overseeing them.
>> Oh, am I?
>> Your your government is
>> in the portfolio, but um I
>> I don't believe they've been requested this [clears throat] one.
>> I want to know what the government's
Uh, Senator, the National Australia Day Council is a Commonwealth company. >> Um, and uh, they make their own decisions about uh, their website and um, I haven't looked at their website recently. Um, but I can do that. But they they're an independent body. There's an independent council that's appointed uh, that manage uh, the secretariat and the the the company. So those decisions matter for it.
>> Let's continue. The 202425 report by the National Australia Day Council has lots of glossy pages full of photos of the world that matters to them. No Australian flags treated as a photo illustration. Three seen in incidental shots. Is the National Australia Day Council acting on a government instruction to ignore that we have a national flag or are they doing so on
Senator, the National Australia Council is a uh it's a company. It's an independent company set up under Commonworth Company uh legislation. Uh it makes its own decisions.
>> I understand the National Australia Day Council budget for grants has risen from $4.5 million in 2025, last year, to $10 million in 2026, 120% increase, more than double. This covers 849 grants in the amounts of $2,000 and $869 grants of $10,000 for larger events and a special rate for Aboriginal groups of up to $15,000. Are you aware and is this correct? And do you do you condone it?
>> Uh the government absolutely supports the grants process. uh funding has been provided over uh many years for a grants program for the National Australia Day Council. Um what those grants are used for are to host Australia Day events. Uh that's the purpose of the grants. Uh they're provided largely to local government instrumentalities uh to support their uh holding of Australia Day functions. So functions in support of Australia Day. So yes, the government does support that program. This funding
included funding for smoking ceremonies, truthtelling workshops and cultural performances, multicultural events, direct national Australia Day council. Examples include capital city events like Sydney's flag raising with indigenous flags. Did those flag raising events include the Australian flag?
>> Uh, I didn't I'd have to take that on notice. I I assume so, but I would have to take it on notice. I didn't attend the events and but I I would presume I did. Yes. But therefore, Australia Day.
Last question on this topic before switching briefly. I understand Minister Gorman required the National Australia Day Council to conduct these events. Minister Gorman, that's my understanding which he calls reflective. Minister, has the AOP government declared war on our Western heritage and flag? Are you as a government ashamed of our heritage?
>> No. And no.
>> Okay, let's move to the ports of Darwin. Minister, the prime minister said to the ABC, I think just before the election, but I'm not sure of the timing, but he definitely said that the idea that any Australian port owned by foreign interest is not in Australian national interests. Does that also apply to the lease of the port of Darwin, a catastrophic mistake made originally by
Uh, Narella Kenning, acting deputy secretary. Um the prime minister has said that the port of Darwin he's um go working to get into Australian hands
>> the prime minister has publicly committed to return to return the port of Darwin to Australian hands.
>> My understanding Thank you Senator Wong. Minister my understanding is that it was not raised with his on his recent trip to China his latest trip to China. As an electoral promise, the prime minister said that Labor would ensure the Australian strategic port of Darwin would return to Australian hands. When is he going to fulfill this promise? Or or is he too scared of the threat of Communist Party e economic retaliation as threatened recently by the Chinese
>> Uh well, I speak for the Australian government. I I'll leave others to comp um publicize what other governments say. Uh the Australian government's position is we will deliver on our commitment to return the port Darwin to Australian hands and we are working to deliver on that commitment.
>> As foreign minister, why wasn't uh it raised on on his latest trip to China?
Um well, I'll might ask Miss Lawson to um uh uh add if if uh I miss anything, but obviously I I would just make the point uh that the Port of Darwin is actually the is actually leased to another corporate
>> I know. I know it wasn't Labor that did the deal, but nonetheless, we want Labor to undo the deal.
>> Senator, uh Ellie Lawson, Deputy Secretary, uh International Security Group. Um the prime minister raised a range of issues in the national interest during his travel uh to China. Uh we don't go into the specifics of those conversations. Um he has said that the port of Darwin will return to Australian hands. Um and and that is what he has committed to do.
>> Is there Thank you. Is there a time
>> Uh I'm not able to give you a time
>> Thank you, chair.
>> What what I would say, Senator, is I think the China is well aware of our position on this.
>> Are they doing anything with it?
>> Well, I'm just saying China is well aware of our position on this.
>> Thank you. Uh, Senator Cash,
>> thank you very much. Just with time escaping us, um, can I just confirm, Senator Wong, that the government has accepted in full Jillian Seagal's the recommendations of Jillian Seagal's
Um, I'm just trying to recall the wording that that that the prime minister used at the press conference. I think that was the wording, but I'll just I'll check publicly.
>> Yeah, that's fine.
>> When he there was a press conference
exactly. Um, if I go to uh the recommendations in section 3.2 law reform, training, enforcement, and section 3.3 education awareness and public discourse of the plan to combat anti-semitism. Uh, Miss Sig recommends providing guidance and comprehensive education to public officials, educators, and public servants. uh to ensure that they have a foundational understanding of anti-semitism. It states and I quote, "Public servants must have access to training to recognize and address anti-semitism." And again, on the 30th of December, 2025 at the press conference, the prime minister said, "We appointed the first ever special envoy to combat anti-semitism, Jillian Seagal." And uh we're implementing her recommendations. And so, Deputy Secretary, can I ask um has the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet commenced or completed anti-semitism awareness training for its
>> Uh Senator, thanks for your question. Um I'm aware some parts of PNC have undertaken some of the pilot training which which has um uh been recommended here. Um the broader issue of training for the AAPS I think is a question for the APSC that is actually committed and I think released some advice earlier today in terms of the steps to put in um uh place um training and guidance for the broader public service but Miss Cthweight might wish
>> I'm actually interested in PMC so if I could concentrate on um prime minister and cabinet so you said yes some parts of prime minister and cabinet >> some hold on so we're going from >> so when we say how many um staff are there in prime minister and cabinet >> approximately >> Karen Karen cross the way acting deputy secretary governance and corporate there's approximately uh 1,300 employees in PMC >> in PMC okay how many have undertaken or completed anti-semitism training oh anti-semitism awareness training >> senator I'll I'll have to take that on notice. Um just to to build on what u Mr. XL has said the um the pilot training that he was referring to uh
some departments are uh in the process
of developing and uh piloting some um anti-semitism awareness training and um some officials have been invited to participate in those but I would have to take on notice the number of people who have participated from PMNC. >> Sorry. So can I just confirm then some departments are in the process of piloting and developing has anyone actually completed anti-semitism awareness training as per the cigar report in prime minister and
>> Prime Minister and cabinet does not currently or yet have our own anti-semitism awareness training. We have contracted um and are procuring um anti-racism training which we are currently working with the providers on to see whether there is a way that we can um incorporate uh the the elements of anti-semitism awareness training that we we should be into what we've already procured. Um and we will look at whether that is um going to meet meet the requirements. Well, the
way, Senator, is I don't know whether there are people within prime minister who have um attended training with other organizations that are not prime So, um, Deputy Secretary, what is the status of the implementation of the Jillian Seagal report in so far as the recommendation relates to comprehensive education to, we'll call them public service officials and public servants in prime minister and cabinet? Has one person completed the training?
So again I would draw Senator your attention to the answer from Miss Cthweight who who referred to the kind of trainings that have occurred in PMC. I I I would answer it in the broader to say that the APSC is supporting the special envoy to develop guidance in terms of that training course that then we look to be developed for more broad um uh roll out across the the IPS. So in essence in the broad it's a work in progress to response to that recommendation for PNC I would refer to the the evidence previously.
>> Okay. When you say it's a work in progress can I just confirm then I'm not trying to be smart. I'm actually trying to get to the bottom of it. Has this been done? It hasn't been rolled out.
>> So my understanding again I I'll take this notice to confirm it but we're aiming for a March 2026 release of that training products.
>> Sorry March
>> 2026. Yeah
>> 2020. When you say you're aiming for >> is there an absolute we're going to start by this date? I'm personally surprised you haven't started, but when will you commence the first session?
>> So, as I said, Senator, the APSC is leading this work. It has advised it is looking to have a first session in March.
>> When you say the first session with prime minister and cabinet? No, that's
that's the idea is that's for broad roll
>> As I understand it and I I think I'm understanding this crosses um evidence is that that like other training APSC provides >> across the board >> across the board so departments portfolios can make them make you know avail themselves of that training. So rather than PMNC providing specific training on specific issues, the APSC provides training um available training across the public service.
Has the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet given it's the lead agency had any input into what the training should
>> I'm aware of engagement. I'm I'm not a cross to take a notice unless Mr. Crossway has specifics in terms of the inputs. I'm aware of conversations.
>> So the the question is >> really in terms of the modules that it is intended that APSC provide did PMNC engage in the preparation of those modules? Okay, we'll take that on notice. Can I just clarify something? Um, and I understand that the APSC has released a circular today on anti-semitism, which I think you might have referred to. Can I just um clarify the evidence earlier, Senator Cash, because I'd like to be very accurate if I can. What the prime minister said in relations to the special envoys report. Our special envoy to combat anti-semitism, Jillian Seagull, has delivered a report that sets out further steps we can take. The Australian government adopts and fully supports the plan to combat anti-semitism. We have already legislated for hate speech, hate crimes, hate symbols, outlawing doxing. We've already undertaken education action, including appointing the first ever student ombbudzman and the development of the envoys envoys report card on universities. We will continue to work through the implementation of the 13 recommendations in consultation with the Jewish community and the envoy. And of course the first recommendation was the adoption of the IRA definition of anti-semitism that the government So I think the phrase was adopts and fully supports. I >> think you use different language with me
>> that yeah no and and thank you for clarifying that. Just going back to the given PMC as the lead agency will the prime minister's office sign off on the modules to ensure that the prime minister and his office are actually satisfied it does what it needs
>> I'd have to take that question on specific process uh on notice. I think it's actually a question for the APC in terms of how they what process they have for the approvals of of their material. Um so I'll just take that on notice.
>> Um just in terms of participation in the anti-semitism training um for as you say around the 1300 staff. Is it going to be mandatory training? Is it voluntary training? Is it mandatory? But you're allowed to conscientiously object.
>> conscientiously object. Yes, that's been
>> Senator, we haven't considered that yet. That's something that I imagine the executive board and the secretary will uh consider once the training has been finalized because we we do have a mix of mandatory um and other essential training. um that that's part of uh how our training works, but we haven't considered that at the moment.
>> Uh sorry, can you just take me through that? Mandatory and other essential training. What does that mean?
>> I I'll defer to Miss Crosweight in terms of their specifics, but we have a range of training programs um that some of which is mandatory um that we need to all as uh do on an annual or 18month
>> can I this please? C can I be really clear, which is why I reacted to your suggestion. No one's ever put that to me until you did. APS values guide the behavior of all APS employees and nonAPS staff, which includes respectful the APS respects all people, including their rights and their heritage.
Sorry, I'm not sure what what what was that meant to mean? I do apologize,
It's it is meant to mean that it is a central public service value to respect others, all people, including their rights and their heritage, and as a consequence, we have zero tolerance of anti-semitism and all other forms of hate and discrimination. So on that
basis, would it be the expectation of the prime minister that given obviously what's occurred over the last two years, we have a royal commission looking into u anti-semitism in Australia, we have the unfortunate um occurrence at Bondi and 15 people are dead. Is it the expectation then of the prime minister that anti-semitism training across the public service, but in particular in prime minister and cabinet would be
mandatory? Well, uh it would be the expectation I think of all ministers uh that all public servants observe those principles which include zero tolerance of anti-semitism. But I'm
talking about the actual training itself given what you said about the prime minister um and the adoption fully supports Miss Sagal's report. One of the recommendations is comprehensive education to public officials, educators and public servants to ensure they have a foundational understanding of anti-semitism. So my question is will it then be the expectation of the prime minister that at least for prime minister and cabinet the lead agency setting the example across the public service this training
>> Senator I will take on notice the nature of the training. It is the expectation of the prime minister uh that uh and all ministers that there is zero tolerance of anti-semitism uh in the public service. Full stop. No,
I
>> would and I would I would also make this point, Senator, and you know, I don't want to get into the politics again, but you seem very very focused on implementing some of the anti-semitism envoyses recommendations that your party refused to vote for stronger vilification provisions, which was a specific recommendation from the envoy. So, it seems that some recommendations matter more to you than others.
>> So, Minister, do you think that this training should be mandatory?
I I think it is mand a requirement that you are not that that the public service recognize there is zero tolerance for anti-semitism. I I I think um managers should exercise judgment about whether or not what training is required.
Again though, I'm just trying to work my way through this specific recommendation of Miss Seagal's report, which states that public servants must have access to training to recognize and address anti-semitism. You've said that the prime minister adopts and fully supports the recommendations of the report. I'm just trying to work out the report was actually handed down some time ago now. Um the prime minister has now said yes absolutely adopts and fully supports. I'm just trying to work through in terms of this specific training given that prime minister and cabinet are the lead agency would it be the prime minister's expectation that yes 1300 or thereabouts in my department they will to provide an example um undertake this training.
Senator, if it helps, my previous comment was not meant to imply any way that that would not be considered for that. Um, and I think as the minister has set out, there is an expectation here. I guess my point for not confirming that here today is that that's the authority of the secretary to actually do that that then mandates a set of reporting and requirement of, you know, um, across the department. So yes, I would expect we will consider this as being one of those elements, but actually that's that's the decision and secretary that I can't take and declare here today when we haven't considered it. So I sorry
>> I was just going to say I think it might be best senator if you're happy to ask APSC some questions on this that would probably be most helpful.
>> They probably happy to ask APSC. I was actually more interested though in the attitude of the department of prime minister and cabinet uh given the significance of the cigal report and what occurred.
>> So why did you why why didn't the coalition support vilific vilification which was a recommendation? Senator,
>> I hate to tell you this, Senator Senator, you are in government and from what I'm hearing so far, I'm not sure
the prime minister is the hypocrisy. >> He would as you on the one hand demand that the anti-semitism report is recommended, but you voted against it.
>> Um, Deputy Secretary, if a staff member did not undertake the training,
>> I'm surprised she ignored me on that.
>> Would they face disciplinary action? What happens if there's mandatory training and you don't do it? What actually does happen? What's the process?
>> Uh I I'll let M crossback go through the process of our overall training. But in regards to this one, I think it's a hypothetical. So uh for the specific question around um the training we're talking about, but the general process I'll go to.
>> Yeah. So um there are a range of specific learning and development courses that are mandatory. Some of those are every year and some of those are upon commencement. The specific consequence would depend on what the training was. For example, if you don't uh frequently complete your um uh fraud and corruption awareness training um and you are sent the reminders so that this is something that this is the way it's managed in the department. Reminders are sent to uh to employees and to their managers. uh that is a uh that is a part of you being a public public servant in prime minister and cabinet. It's an expectation. You would not be meeting expectations of um performance in the department and that would be managed through a performance management process.
>> Right. So there is a performance management process in the event but it depends on the type of training that it
>> Uh the these are are often subjective um subjective decisions. There are uh like for example I can't get a credit card in the department unless I've done my credit card training. So you know there are um there are consequences that are a bit more direct than a performance
>> Okay.
>> And we will rotate if you're finished that one.
>> That's fine. Yep.
>> Um Senator Darling.
>> Thank you chair. I've got some questions in relation to first nations policy particularly around progress on the first nations economic development partnership. I think that was announced and agreed in the second half of last year uh which was supporting indigenous lead economic development through shared decision-m agreed priority reforms and a published work plan. So noting the agreement is only a few months old, could you provide an update on how the partnership is operating in practice, including key areas of work currently underway and how those priorities are
>> Thank you, Senator Greo, Social Policy Division. Um, as you noted, Senator, the partnership agreement was finalized last year between the Australian government as well as the Coalition of the Peaks and the Economic Alliance. Uh since formalization of the partnership, work has progressed between partners uh to develop a work plan which was one of the key partnership outcomes and work sorry and working groups have been established through that work plan to cover key priority areas which include uh access to capital which is one of the key um drivers particularly from the partners from the economic alliance. um work underway around um education and skills which had its genesis in the employment um white paper process earlier as well as work to establish an economic framework for first nations economic empowerment. There is a meeting of the partners uh later this month where we will um be provided with more updates on actions underway under each of those working
groups. and particularly around um the new funding model for prescribed uh body corporates. Uh how do you see that improving the practically flowing through to economic opportunities including land use agreements that support projects, jobs and local
>> Thank you, Senator. Um yes, as you're aware um as you were no doubt aware um under the Native Title Act, prescribed bodies corporates are established in perpetuity as a first point of contact for any party, be it government or business wanting to take undertake activities on native title land. So the prime minister's announcement at GMA of $75 million of additional funding for prescribed bodies corporate will be a key enabler for native title organizations to partner with uh businesses and other organizations that want to take undertake economic empowerment activity. Um the work on the um uh funding model for the prescribed bodies corporate is being led out of the NIAA in close partnership with the Native Title Council. Um the Native Title Council provided a update on that work to the partnership later late last year. uh and I think work will continue to make sure that the the funding is um allocated in a way that best supports empowerment across a range of organizations.
>> Thank you. On a similar theme uh in relation to economic empowerment, I noticed the Australia UAE comprehensive economic partnership agreement was the first ever Australian trade agreement to specifically include measures aimed at leveraging opportunities in the economy for indigenous Australians. So could you just outline how significant that was and what some of the commitments that were included in that um first agreement to support indigenous jobs and board
Yes, Senator. I might see if my colleague would like to comment, but um while Miss Lawson >> Yes. The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade uh led on the um the UAE comprehensive economic partnership agreement, First Nations Action Plan. Um, it does outline tangible support for First Nations businesses to realize the significant economic potential of the UAE and the broader region. Um, but probably would direct any further detailed questions to the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade.
>> Yeah, I guess more just in the broader sense about you you leveraging our trade relationships to improve uh outcomes for First Nations people. Is this something that you think that we can continue to progress and look at in other trade discussions and those international
Um, Senator, I don't want to uh comment on future trade negotiations, but I suppose to bring the part the um the UAE partnership agreement back to some of the objectives of the economic partnership certainly um the range of sectors that are covered by the agreement including creative industries, the green economy, services, agri food and some of those critical enabling technologies are very much consistent with the objectives under the partnership which government has signed