Senate Finance and Public Administration Legislation Committee, , 7:16:06 to 7:31:28
Discussion on deregulation initiatives, the reduction of regulatory burdens, and the measurement of savings achieved through legislative repeals.
Topics: Law reform, Government IT systems
Speakers: Hon Katy Gallagher, Andrew Bragg, Rachel Antone, Unknown Speaker, Karen Grogan, Dave Sharma, Senator Andrew Bragg
>> Okay, we'll get back to it. Um, we are returning uh with the Department of Finance and we'll start with Senator
>> Thank you very much, Chair. So, I have some questions about deregulation. there was after the election the government had a I think it was called an economic reform roundt.
>> Uh yeah. Yes.
>> Is that what it was called?
>> The treasurers um >> roundt. Yeah.
>> Yeah. So it was called the Is that the right name? The economic reform roundt.
>> I think so. Yeah, >> that's correct. So
>> yeah, >> rings a bell. And did you go to that minister?
>> Uh I attended a lot of it. Not all of it, but a lot of it I did.
>> Yeah. And it was in the cabinet room.
>> It was.
>> It's a very democratic place to have a
>> it's an important room. Yeah.
>> How many people went, do you think?
>> Uh I I'd have to take that on notice, but it the the table was full. So I don't know if I've got that detail because it was run by Treasury,
>> but there would have So you were there and the treasurer was there. Did the prime minister go?
>> He did attend uh the first I think either the maybe the first morning he attended a session. Yep.
>> Right. And how many other ministers went with other
>> um Oh gosh, so it feels like a long time I would have to take that on notice. Um there were other ministers that came in and out.
>> Right.
>> But it wasn't primarily for you know it was led by the the treasurer essentially and limited space in the room
>> and then you flew into people like from regulators and some others business people.
>> Mhm. I don't I mean it was done by Treasury not finance. So I don't have any of that information with with me today. We we can definitely have it tomorrow.
>> So Treasury ran it today.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> Okay. Um and then one of the outcomes of that economic reform roundt was some deregulation Um one of them was the government writing to the regulators.
>> Yep. We've did that.
>> You remember that? Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> So, did the treasurer write to the regulators or was that you and you?
>> We both did. Yeah.
>> You both did.
>> Yeah.
>> How many regulators did you write to?
>> All of them. Um, >> More than I >> 38. >> Immediately knew.
>> 38.
>> Yeah. 38 [laughter] letters.
>> Okay. 38 regulated. So, 38 pieces of paper. And how did you did you send the letters? How did you you email them to
them? Did you? Yeah, this is pime again primarily treasury but yeah let's go and see what we can provide.
>> But you you're you counter sign the letter. You're the
>> finan. Yeah, I think I did all of them.
>> Okay.
>> Did I do all of them? >> Yeah. Thank you, Rachel.
>> Cuz you're you are you have some role on deregulation, don't you?
>> Yes. Yes.
>> Okay. Is that why you counter sign the
>> Yes.
Okay. So, you send 38 letters to the regulators asking them what their ideas are on deregulation. Is that right? >> Okay. Okay. And it's this is a bit like asking Dracula if he wants some more blood, I suppose, at the blood bank. But, um, so what did they come back with?
>> Well, all the letters are published. Uh, I understand. So, they there was a number of ideas. Yeah.
>> So, which one do you think are good?
>> Well, we're working through all of those in consultation with uh the uh relevant ministers and their departments.
>> Okay. So, but I mean what do you think are the top priorities that came out of the regulators letters?
>> Um well um I'm just trying to line up some dates I mean this I'm I'd be have more information for you tomorrow on this. I mean financ's main role has been uh on developing the first regulatory or Dereg bill. That's the where we've put the most effort in post the reg uh round table uh which we got through the parliament last year. Uh but there were look we're working through them in short uh decisions are yet to be made or finalized. There's some work that the treasurer has announced in relation to uh some uh reform or some work being done around ASICH. Um but again we'll bring that uh tomorrow because it's not really relevant here.
>> Okay. But you're the minister for deregulation in effect are you not?
I have that as part of my portfolio responsibilities within department of finance. Um and so we have done our first bill the regulatory reform omnibus uh bill which we took through the parliament and passed without your help unfortunately Senator Bragg last year. Um and we have an ongoing role in that sense of now do you know looking at the next tranch and things like that and we work with the treasurer and other ministers on that.
>> Okay. So I guess the question is you got 38 letters you've got ideas in there. Are there any really good ideas that
>> Well, I'm just not in a position to to speculate on those whilst we're going through and and look to be fair, they don't all sit with >> Well, most of them don't sit within the finance portfolio. They sit in other ministers portfolios. We're going through the work
>> um point of this minister is to try and get rid of some red tape for the Australian people. So we had the department of prime minister here yesterday and they reported back that they only look at new laws coming in, right? So they don't look at the overall regulatory burden. They they only look at the flows, new proposals. So if we want to try and get, you know, the jack boot off the neck of the Australian economy, which is kind of sinking under the weight of red tape, you've got a economywide role as the minister for deregulation in effect. So I'm trying to work out what urgency is being attached to these proposals or any of the other proposals that came out of their comic round table.
Well, I mean, the first test of that was the bill that we brought before the parliament.
>> That was a nothing bill.
>> Uh, well, was it?
>> We'd only repealed two two things. >> It repealed the
>> It wasn't a nothing bill. It set up It started to set up the tell us once approach, which is actually trying to make it seamless for for customers to engage with government. Pretty important set of reforms.
>> My understanding is that the evidence from last time was that it repealed two acts. the cockatu and schnapper islands act 1949 and the early years quality fund special account 2013. I mean these are these are not the two biggest pieces of red tape in Australia. >> In fact these are acts of parliament that no one's ever heard of.
>> 60 or so was there is Rachel
>> just >> is that right >> what I said
>> there were from memory there were more than 60 uh changes to legislation not all repeal but there were changes
>> how many were repealed
>> and well that's not a measure of of effective regulation
>> yes it is
>> well it's your measure it's not
everyone's measure
>> right
>> how many how many laws are there in
>> Austral I think you well from my point of view more important than um you Whether you count it by repeals or additions, it's how effective is the regulation that you have in place. >> And um Rachel can take us through Oh, sorry.
>> Well, how many laws are there in Australia then? >> How many laws are there in Australia?
>> Sorry.
>> How many laws have you got in the books here in CRA?
>> Uh I don't have that figure in front of
>> Well, it's 1,200. >> So, shouldn't you be trying to get rid of a whole bunch of these laws given
>> we are about effective regulation, Senator Bragg?
>> Okay. So, you you got rid of the Cocoa. Sorry, not Coco, Cockatu and Schnappa Islands Act 1949. >> What's that? That's
>> I see just see.
>> And then you got rid of the Early Years Quality Fund Special Account 2013. So, those two are gone. There's another 1,200 left. Um, how many more can you get from? >> Well, here's one of my favorites
[clears throat] that was done under the former government where you in your red tape repeal day, you repealed the act which stipulated that the owner of a mule or bulock required for naval or military purposes shall furnish it for such purposes.
>> You probably put that one back.
>> And then there was this other gem. There [laughter] was this other gem where you the [snorts] change was e-enale to e no hyphen male.
going to reinstate that act?
>> Faximile to a faximile to facts. That was another one. >> And then you removed 40 hyphens, one comma, and one inverted comma.
>> On the big issue,
>> that was your red tape repeal day.
>> I'm really pleased that after 4 years, you're still talking about the Liberal Party.
>> Well, I'm just saying mocking efforts to do um effective regulation. And at [clears throat] the first chance you got, you refused to to back some regulatory reform. And this is the first of tranches of regulatory reform that we'll be bringing to this parliament. So hopefully we'll have better success. >> So how many So what's the time table for
the next next big repeal bill? We're going to get rid of some other random acts of parliament. When's that going to
well um decisions will be made about that. I I can't give you a date right now, but it's the work is underway.
>> And are you looking to pair back
uh we are work well I mean if it makes like if if if I think the approach that I'm trying to bring is effective regulation like better regulation it's less about less and more and what what what regulation is needed to protect uh consumers to uh deliver quality um care and services that allows business to do what they need to do and depart you know frankly across government there's plenty we could do too that um you know cuts down on processes and and focuses on outcomes. So that's the kind of approach I'm bringing like what is going to deliver good outcomes. >> What's the regulatory settings for that? If it means less regulation then I'm up for that but or if it means tweaking regulation I'm up for that.
>> So in the omni bus bill which repealed cockatu and schnappa islands act how much did that save? What was the
>> Um sorry can you just repeat that? So,
one of the two acts you've repealed so far in your deregulation agenda is the Cockatu and Schnappa Islands Act 1949. >> How much was the regulatory saving on that repeal?
>> Senator Rachel Anton um uh first assistant secretary commercial group. Uh Senator, you may be aware that there are uh discussions um being had uh and a productivity commission recommendation on measurement of burden and that of course um conversely is also about measurement and of removing burden. Um there are quite a wide variety of ways in which these things are measured uh and little evidence on um which of them work. Uh and so the government is currently considering the productivity commission's recommendation which um landed at the end of last year.
>> That with the greatest respect that had nothing to do with my question. My question was what was the regulatory cost saving from the government repealing the cockatu and islands act 1949.
>> Uh senator the um regulatory reform omnibus bill had a range of measures um over 60. uh and in so making those changes I think your point about measuring the reduction in burden um would involve a measure.
>> How much money did it save? This is not a trick question. How much regulatory savings have been achieved by repealing the cockatu and snapper islands act
>> Senator as I mentioned that would involve an actual way in which to measure that. uh and the productivity commission has provided a recommendation on that matter and
>> so it sounds like you haven't measured >> Have you not measured that
>> senator? We've measured the benefit in a in a qualitative sense but not in a
quantitative >> quantity. You don't know. Okay. What about the early years quality fund special account 2013? >> Same answer
>> for all of the measures of the omnibus bill. Senator.
>> Okay. Well, that's that's [clears throat] disappointing. Well, finally, can I just ask you, have you met with all the relevant cabinet ministers in relation to the reg deregulation proposals that have been sent to you by the 38 regulators?
>> Um,
>> about that matter about those matters.
>> No, but I have spoken I think with pretty I have spoken with cabinet ministers uh about uh deregulation and regulatory reform
>> but not about the proposals that the
form part of the ongoing work. Like we've got like within 3 months of being reelected, we had a bill in the parliament. I delayed it at the request of the opposition so he had more time to consider it. Otherwise, we would have passed it sooner. It got passed in December. We're working on the next stage. Like that's in under six or seven months, I think. You know,
>> look forward to seeing >> it being and can I ask you for a commitment finally? Thanks, chair, for your indulgence. that this sort of business of not actually even measuring the cost savings is not a very good approach. I mean surely if you're going to repeal pieces of legislation, you should at least identify what the cost
There will be some you know as you would expect when the cabinet takes decisions like that they would be fully briefed on uh the benefits and impacts of those