Senate Finance and Public Administration Legislation Committee, , 6:41:21 to 6:47:26
Debate over youth justice in the Northern Territory, the use of spit hoods, and the impact of incarceration on First Nations youth.
Topics: First Nations, Youth justice, Human rights
Speakers: Senator David Shoebridge, Hon Malarndirri McCarthy, Bridgette Bellenger, Unknown Speaker
>> Uh oh, thanks chair and thanks everyone for your attendance. Um, Minister, one of the most troubling things that's happening in the space of youth justice at the moment is the practice of the Northern Territory government putting spit hoods back on um, uh, uh, young people who are in detention. Overwhelmingly, that's on First Nations young people. um what's your agency doing to understand the extent to which the NT is doing that and the extent to which you're seeking I hope to stop it.
>> Um thank you Senator Shoebridge. I will refer to the agency in a moment. Uh it is um of of great concern in terms of uh what's happening with uh the incarceration of First Nations people in particular in the Northern Territory. And what has added to that concern is the uh removal of the justice groups in the Northern Territory at this point uh with the Northern Territory uh government and the Northern Territory attorney general. We have uh in about 3 weeks time 3 to four weeks time our joint council on closing the gap and it will be an important focus but I'll just refer to um Miss Bellenger.
>> Uh thank you Bridget Bellinger group manager central group um uh Senator Shoebridge. It's certainly something we take up in all of the different uh forums that we have with the Northern Territory government. I think AGDs actually lead the national partnership and justice work. Uh and they actually have all of the ministers there from the different attorney general offices and it's definitely been a key issue in that forum as well.
>> Um well, it's not just their continued use of spitwoods, it's removal of detention as a last resort which has seen a huge surge of First Nations young people being put in incarceration. overwhelming many of the legal supports um that are in place and that are pretty much all funded by the Commonwealth. you know again could I ask what this department is doing in response to that?
Uh so Senator Shoebridge um most of the the majority of the funding sits with attorney generals and they'd be best placed in terms of what our agency does though we do fund the through care system through nar >> uh we regularly meet with them and we've got different systems of support in remote communities to try to avoid people uh coming to detention in the first place. Uh attorney generals though are largely responsible for the funding of the justice and legal systems.
>> Yeah. Well, I I asked the attorney generals earlier today and they largely said, well, the criminal justice system is a matter for the states and territories and um it's on SCAG, which is a standing >> um council of attorney generals, >> but it's been on SCAG now for a decade. I think this is targets 11 in closing the gap >> and doesn't seem to change. well, doesn't seem to change for the good, it's changing for the bad. What's happening in the NT, >> it's mirrored in Queensland to some extent, also in New South Wales. Um, uh, and the attorney general's response is, "Oh, well, that's what states and territories do." >> That's not an answer, do you think,
>> It is an answer.
>> Well, it's not a valid answer.
>> It is an answer and and it is a legitimate answer. Uh the the difficulty though is that it's not changing.
>> Well, it is changing. It's getting worse.
>> It's not changing for the better is what what I am referring to when I say it's not changing. It's not changing for the better. >> and that is the challenge for us. Yes.
But but you've been given advice I think through the ALS and Naja from two incredibly wellrespected lawyers. One a highly respected silk and the other a senior junior saying the commonwealth has the ability to legislate in this place. You can use the external affairs power. You can legislate to actually prevent this kind of abuse happening. Is is is are these are these discussions happening at all inside your government?
>> the Commonwealth does have powers. It has tremendous powers, certainly as far as the Northern Territory is concerned.
>> But but but no, no, to be clear, this is not s their advice was not using the territo's power. This advice was using the external affairs power um and was focused on that because of the very real concerns about using the territo's powers. So could ask you to focus on
that. Well, I would put this to you that that belongs to the attorney general and that perhaps you focus on that.
Well, you see, Minister, one of the frustrations I think many people have in the way your government is structured, is that you, as the minister responsible for indigenous Australians in charge of um NIA, which is the agency which has front and center at least external responsibility. I don't doubt that there's goodwill inside your department. I don't doubt there's goodwill with you, Minister. I don't doubt this. But what I see is the agency which is branded as the one supporting First Nations people >> doesn't seem to have the power. All the power lies with the Attorney General's Department or finance or Treasury and and you're here answering questions. Um but you're not none of the levers are given to you to fix things. It must be
frustrating, Senator Shoebridge, when uh we have the national agreement on closing the gap and yes, target 11 is going backwards. Uh that is incredibly frustrating. Yes.