Senate Finance and Public Administration Legislation Committee, , 3:24:13 to 3:35:08
Senator Thorpe questions the President on handling racism in the chamber and the transparency of correspondence involving other senators named in complaints.
Topics: Human rights, Workplace culture, Social cohesion
Speakers: Speaker 3, Senator Lidia Thorpe, Senator Karen Grogan, Unknown Speaker, Hon James McGrath, Jaala Hinchcliffe
>> McGra? A different topic, but it's three questions in it and then I'm done.
>> Well, I'm going to rotate the call just cuz you're at 20 minutes and we have Senator Thorpe in the room who has a couple of questions and then we'll come back to you. Over to you, Senator Thorpe.
>> Thank you, Chair. Um my question uh is for the president. as this is my workplace, we have raised with you multiple times about racism in this building and racism in the chamber. Can you tell me what what's happening? What are you doing about it?
>> I have responded to you in writing, Senator Thorpe. I don't have that letter with me. um to but um I have responded to your concerns. Um as I've said on multiple occasions, the um the standing orders cover certain behaviors and where those um behaviors um are on display in the Senate. If I'm in the chair, I ask for them to be withdrawn. Um where there are personal reflections against senators, which is a breach of the standing orders. If I'm in the chair, I ask for them to be withdrawn. As I've said um on numerous occasions in the Senate, the way that the standing order applies is that it has to be dealt with at that time because um comments by other senators and interjections are invariably not caught by the Hansard. And so you can't really go back and view the video evidence and come to any conclusion because that that even though it sounds very loud in the Senate at the time when you look at the video um recording it's not there which is why um those uh remarks which senators find are offensive do need to be dealt with in the chamber at that time. Um, I would be much happier if senators were more respectful in their behavior and that goes to all of us. Um, and I say that many many times when I'm chairing the Senate. Um, that that is my responsibility to try and ensure that the the chamber is respectful. That isn't always the case and if it isn't and I'm in the chair, I draw it to senator's attentions.
>> Thank you. So, is it okay to be racist in the chamber? Is it is it acceptable?
>> Well, acceptable standards are judged by the standing orders. Senator Thorpe,
>> so the racist speeches, the racism, turning your back on the uh welcome to country, acknowledgement to country is a form of racism. Well, what are the rules,
>> Senator? My responsibilities and my actions are covered by the standing orders. So where it is a breach of the standing orders, I will if I'm in the chair draw it to senator's attention. And I think um many people in the many senators here have I've asked to withdraw various comments at particular times. So if I'm in the chair, I ask for the withdrawal to happen this but my role as president is limited to standing orders or I will often ask a senator to reflect on how their behavior or the comment that they've made may have um upset another senator and I will ask for that senator in the interest of the chamber to withdraw a remark which I've done on countless times.
>> Yeah. Thanks. Um the letter that you're referring to, is that the letter that you received from uh Senator Payman, Senator Faruqi, and myself? >> Can you tell me why you responded to us, including One Nation, in your response to the three women of color asking you to step in and stop racism in the chamber? You then responded and included Pauline Hanson.
>> Well, as I said,
>> why did do do you understand the hurt and the harm and the racism of you even doing that?
>> Well, that's a conclusion you can draw, Senator Thorpe.
>> Well, that's what we felt all of us
>> that I disagree with you. I don't have I don't have the letter in front of me, so I can't make a comment on it. So, you
got a letter from three [clears throat] women of color senators about the racism and you responded and put Pauline Hanson in that letter.
>> Well, Senator,
>> that was a letter from the three of us.
Well, I'm going to respond. >> Sorry, I haven't finished.
>> So, okay. I I'm I'm going to just ask everyone to just take turns so that we can everyone has a chance to have their say. You you know so that you can ask your questions and so that the questions you were asked are responded to.
>> Um so you chose to publish the letter >> in the media before I got it. So let's not be you know
>> so that's why you included Pauline Hanson in a letter to the three black
you. As I said to you, Senator Thorpe, I don't have the letter in front of me. My recollection is that you made um statements in relation to that senator. And so, as a matter of courtesy, I included that senator in the response.
>> Do you understand the harm that that caused to the three women of color who put that letter to you? Do you understand the harm that you caused?
>> it is my responsibility as the president to be transparent. If I have a letter that makes statements about another senator, then uh it is my responsibility to make sure that the senator is also part of my response because that senator may wish to make their own contribution.
>> So can I be clear about the process then? So if someone writes a letter to you, you're meant to be in control of the Senate. They write a letter to you and they say, "We're not feeling very safe here. We're being attacked every day when we come to work in your workplace that you owe that you run. We wrote to you saying, "Can you please do So you respond with the perpetrator.
>> Well, they're your words, Senator Thought. They're not mine, but you you wrote a letter to me which you then chose to publish in the media. So it was not a secret. It it had been published in the media. Uh I responded to that letter and if a senator was named in that letter then I will include that senator in the response. Uh I'm not in control of the workplace. Uh this parliament is belongs to all parliamentarians. We all have a sense of >> to um to make this a safe workplace. When I am in the chamber, it is my role as the president to uphold this the standing orders which I take very seriously. I am concerned about the disrespect generally from many senators in the chamber to one another and to me. And if you look at my record, I uh pull senators up when that disrespect is evident to me, either to another senator or to me.
>> I just don't understand the process and the the um the health and well-being aspect of responding the way you did and including the perpetrator in that event. Does that then mean that anybody who writes to you, you will always respond with the alleged perpetrator copied in?
>> As I've said,
>> is that the process?
>> As I've said, Senator Thorpe, a senator was named in that letter. It is my responsibility in putting a response together to alert that senator to my comments. [clears throat] that is open and transparent.
>> It's also very dangerous and very harmful. And I'd like you to reconsider and make sure that the people writing to you about the harm that they are experiencing that you take that a little bit more seriously next time and you maybe call or email and let them know that you're including the perpetrator into the correspondence. Well, Senator
thought that that's a term you're using. Your letter to me, the um the writers of that letter, all their staff chose to publish it in the media. So, it was open to anyone to make a response. It named another senator. It is beholden on me as the president to ensure an open and transparent response and to ensure that the senator named was aware of what I had said as the
>> I understand what you're saying. I'm just asking you if you could consider the harm caused.
>> Well, they're your words, Senator Thorpe.
>> Does Can anyone else from a DPS
perspective? >> This is the Department of Parliamentary Services.
>> This is this [clears throat] to
>> No, no one really wants to deal with racism in this place. It is a very unsafe workplace and I'm sorry you don't make it any
>> and if I can and if I can add to that I've just now looked at the letter and I would like to put on the record that Senator Hanson was not copied in as a response.
>> Okay. So just to be clear the letter was published by those who sent it to you.
>> Yes, that's correct. And in my response um I responded to the three senators who were authors uh to that letter and whilst there was a reference to another senator that senator was not absolutely not copied into the letter. So senator's thoughts line of questioning is not correct or her assertion that I copied another senator into the response who was not an author to that letter is not
>> Thank you for that point of clarity. President. >> Um, back to Senator McGrath.