Senate Finance and Public Administration Legislation Committee, , 3:35:36 to 4:00:09
The Office for Women addresses the impact of climate change on women and the safety implications of the OzAlert emergency system.
Topics: Climate change, Family and domestic violence
Speakers: Senator The Hon Katy Gallagher, Senator Malcolm Roberts, Senator Maria Kovacic, Speaker 15, Speaker 16, Senator Karen Grogan
>> Okay. Uh the office for women's website states quote women face greater impacts from climate change in Australia. Women are more likely to live in housing unable to cope with extreme temperature and experience higher rates of ill health and death as a result especially older women. End of quote. Now these questions are from a female constituent. Of the 122,494 people experiencing homelessness at the 2021 census, 55.9% were male. Men account for around 66% of people sleeping rough. The cohort most exposed to extreme heat and 65% of homeless people aged 65 to 74 are male. Given these figures, why does the office frame heat vulnerability as a women's issue rather than as an issue affecting multiple vulnerable groups, including men, older Australians, people in North Queensland, Aboriginals, Toristra Islander people, and veterans? Why do you frame it as as a gender issue?
>> Thank you. Thank you, Senator. Um I'm I'm not sure exactly what part of the website you you are referring to, but but certainly um more broadly there is sort of good evidence that [cough] shows that men and women have different experiences of climate change and related issues like like natural disasters. Um certainly there are a range of other
about men and women having different range of experiences with regard to disasters?
>> Uh so so certainly um matters like women being on lower incomes and the financial pressures that interact with natural disasters. Um we know that there are increased rates of family and domestic violence following national disasters and in the context of of national disasters. Um and women are more likely to experience family and domestic violence. Um caring responsibilities that um uh become more acute or heighten in the context of in the context of national natural disasters. Um so they're they're just some examples of the um different or the the particularly gendered experiences that um women may have as a result of natural disasters. This is not at all to take away from the experiences that men have or the experiences that um you know other cohorts of of people have either based on location or indigenity or sort of cultural background but but but certainly we we do know that about um the kind of aggregate gendered experience of natural disasters.
>> Thank you. 2023 to 2024 data from the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare shows the most common reasons people sought homelessness support were accommodation issues at 55%, financial difficulties at 41% and the housing crisis at 37%. Where is the research identifying climate change rather than income and housing costs as a cause of women entering poor housing?
>> yeah, Senator, again, I'm not entirely clear on the which part of the website that you're that you're referring to,
but I that's that's our data.
>> You're putting together the AIHW data with the website and then challenging
>> and asking where's where's where's the evidence for climate?
>> Well, I think there's a lot of international evidence that is not contested about the impacts of climate change on women and girls for the reasons.
>> Could we have some samples? Sorry. >> Could we have some samples hard hard references?
>> Well, I'm very happy to provide them to
you if you could on notice.
>> Yeah, UN women have done a huge amount of work in this space as have a number of international uh organizations. I mean it's that women are obviously you know poverty, hunger or food insecurity having to care for children um not being able to relocate um sometimes because of those uh reasons about care but also around cultural reasons. I mean there's you know [cough] there is a lot of evidence Senator Roberts but you may not you may not agree with it but there is certainly a lot of literature written
about it. I look forward to your
>> We're going to need to rotate. Call
>> one. One more question before we >> one more. Yeah.
>> Did you say?
>> Australia has always experienced hot summers and cold winters and cold contributes to more temperature related deaths than heat for most causes. That's been throughout human history and it's a mar it's a marked uh difference. Whether a woman or a man is harmed depends on whether their in their home is adequate and whether they can afford to heat or cool it. housing quality and energy affordability can be addressed directly. So why is this Labor government trying to make climate change a scapegoat? And this these questions are from from a woman constituent.
>> Um well, we're not trying to make climate change a scapegoat. We're trying to deal with the real life impacts of climate change. And the again, if you talk to anyone, I know that NEMA is appearing now, the National Emergency Management Agency. If you if you know you look at any of the analysis about um you know some of the um impending weather season, I think experts in the field universally accept that the number, the frequency and the intensity of natural disasters as a result of climate change is affecting this country and we are responding to that. Senator Roberts, I I accept you do not agree with that. Um but we we are the ones that have to take responsibility for it because we're in government.
>> Even the the UN's climate body now walks that back is now walking it back.
>> Well, the advice to government is very clear that we are going to have to continue to respond to high-risisk weather seasons that disproportionately affect certain parts of the country and that that is as a direct result of the effects of climate change. and we'll rotate the call and we'll go to Senator Kassic.
>> Thank you, Chair. Um I have some questions um around the Osalert system. Um was the office of women office for women consulted by Nema during the design process of the Osalert system?
>> I don't believe so, Senator. No, but I I would like I would like to confirm that.
>> Okay. Thank you. Minister, do you know whether there was any consultation sought by your office um in relation to the O alert system with the office of for women before I
>> Uh I would have to check that I was certainly involved in discussions around Oz alert as you would expect including the leadup to the deployment. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Did you provide any guidance to them in relation to that? >> Um, many people, particularly victims of survivors of um, family and domestic violence, rely on concealed mobiles, phones as we know, and other devices, and the Osla system overrides the do not disturb >> um, and silent phone settings and they play a loud siren. Was this issue raised at any point um by the office um for women or by yourself minister to Tana about the design feature of the Oz alert system? Um so
there was consultation uh around this. It falls under the direct portfolio responsibility of minister plebec who deals with women's safety. Uh and I was certainly part of discussions on that. uh and across our offices um there was extensive consultation and I recall at least one discussion uh I had uh with the relevant minister.
>> Okay. And then just sort of in um conjunction with that and I and I note the earlier question being taken on notice. Um was any guidance provided to NEMA by the Office of Women in relation to um an awareness campaign around um you know the OS alert um system being tested and and what that would mean for for individuals with concealed devices.
So DSS had um carriage of that side of um things under Minister Pbeekc's portfolio and I can certainly see if I can get an update they appear later in the week but I'll see if there's anything further I can provide about that because there was I'm aware certainly I spoke to a couple of community organizations that >> u were advising on how to uh appropriately respond to that uh trial
>> that test run. Yeah. Um because minister um shadow minister McIntosh and I wrote to um to minister McBain in relation to this as well um because we were quite concerned some time out about the risk. So I was just curious whether um either you yourself um or the office provided any feedback in relation to that or or whether any of those concerns were expressed.
>> Yes. So the answer to that is yes. And I'm just I'm just looking at a note. There was a lot of engagement with the safety sector on how to manage and how to communicate the trial safely, especially through frontline services through the DSS networks.
>> And what did they say in response in terms of their concerns around um how to run the testing and and the impacts then on women with concealed devices? Was it sort of a an approach of well this is the only way to do this and we will need to have an awareness campaign so that people know or was it was there any other sort of thought process put into it or or feedback from them to actually say what was the best way to to deal with the test to ensure that it didn't impact people.
>> I think that's really one that we have to refer to DSS um because they did have respon yeah they were they were dealing with that side but they I think I'm appearing with them later in the week.
>> Okay. And then um finally then following the Oslet test on the 27th of July, did the Office for Women request any information or briefings from NEMA or any other departments about the tests impact on victim survivors of domestic and family violence? Like was there an uptick in um uh in reporting or was are you aware of?
>> I was not. So we we across office levels um we had been involved. I was not >> uh briefed on any um problematic outcomes after that trial. But again, I think we just leave it like I'm sure uh Tanya Plebec's Minister Plybease and her department will be able to go through if there were any additional concerns raised
>> and and certainly Senator the Office meets with that part of DSS with great frequency and and those issues were not raised with us.
>> Okay. Um and then um and I obviously note your interest in this space because you have the you're running this the systems um abuse audit. Is that right? So did that sort of flag anything any concerns for you in relation to that?
>> Well, one of the things that we are doing through the systems abuse audit is really trying to embed safety by design principles >> in in design of new systems. Question. Yes. Yes. So we certainly are um looking at safety by design in different systems and encouraging other agencies to build that in to the design and um upgrade of their systems.
>> Did did your office request any data to establish whether there was an increase in reported domestic and family violence incidents after the test?
>> So this is a matter like so Minister Plebec and I have pretty clear delineation responsibilities. she uh has responsibility for women's safety. We work across as as we do, but it would be more appropriate that that be a question for uh DSS.
>> Yeah, sure. I just thought I I and I note that and I I accept elements of that, but it was just more around the data piece um given the coverage [cough and clears throat] of work in relation um to the abuse audit. Yes, as
Miss Leahy um said earlier, we haven't been told that there was a and we do work with them >> on a weekly basis. So um [cough] that [clears throat] the questions are probably better put to them in terms of whether they have any data, but certainly they haven't alerted us to the fact that there was an increase.
>> Okay. Um and in an answer to Quan um0861 from last estimates um the department of the PNC expressly identified um the following and I'll quote as work led by the office of women um leading coordination and publication of regular updates on the progress of the audit of Australian government systems and guidance on apply applying safety by design principles across the APS. So just to get have clarity in my own mind, if the office coordinates work to identify and prevent government systems being weaponized by perpetrators of domestic violence, um is there that inverse role in identifying the risks associated um with the O alert as well? So how that would actually expose um someone who was um trying to protect
So the the scope of the audit, Senator, and I I absolutely like I absolutely take take your point and I think it's a it's a um a very good one. Um and and certainly we were were aware of a range of activity happening in the leadup to to the the OA alert um test including by the women's by the women's safety by the women's safety sector um ensuring that women were were aware of of what the the impact um would be on devices that were set on silent or or do not disturb. the the scope of the the audit is is largely focused on um how perpetrators of family and domestic violence are actively engaging with systems um to to weaponize them against victim survivors. So the the work that um the work that has been underway to date has been um particularly focused in the last 12 months on the child support system as well as closing financial abuse loopholes particularly through coerc directorships and um perpetrator access to to superanuation. Um but certainly there is broader work as well happening across across the Australian public service in relation to embedding safety safety by design in in systems so that those systems aren't able to be weaponized.
>> Yeah. H have you um requested any of that data in relation to whether there have there was an increase in incidents
meet on a a reasonably regular basis with so there are a couple of governance mechanisms that sit under the systems abuse that sit under the systems abuse audit um including department of department of home affairs department of social services and a range of other other departments related to this particular issue and um through through that sort of convening and governance this this matter hasn't hasn't been raised as well as in our so in that kind of formal setting where we're explicitly looking at at um systems abuse which is which is the um you know which which is sort of the which is a a good a good for in which to explore these sorts of issues but then also through our informal engagements that that that hasn't that hasn't emerged.
>> Yeah. And for sure just to clarify I note you said that it wasn't raised but you haven't specifically sought any data in relation to any um sparks in incidents after that test. The
expectation would be that if there was, it would be an issue that would be raised through those forums.
>> Okay. >> As a as a matter of course, it wouldn't need to be asked about.
>> Well, it would be that that area's responsibility to raise it. Um, and that hasn't occurred. But the government will be looking through and I imagine I don't know if um Minister McBain's areas of emergency management have dealt with this today but obviously lessons learned from the OS alert trial will be considered as well if there are and I mean it was a particular set of circumstances in that there was a national trial of this system as opposed to more localized utilization of it that I think elevated the concerns around women's safety.
And senator, sorry, I do have an updated piece of information. Sure. Which is that the the team responsible in the office for women for the for the systems abuse audit did um in like reach out to Nema ahead of the trial and share with them safety by design guidance.
>> Great. Thank you very much. That's all from me, chair.
>> Okay. Senator Roberts, over to you.
>> Thank you. Your your website references the women's agenda 2023 report titled the climate load. A report whose only original data is an online poll of 600 of the publication's own readers. Are you aware that even this very limited report found that 27% of women surveyed expected difficulty paying their energy bills within the next 3 months? that insurance premiums are rising around 10 to n 10 to 11% annually due to inflation and weather related risk and that being able to afford air conditioning is a major factor in coping with heat. Aren't these cost of living
>> Yes. I mean weather related risk associated with some of those which you just read out yourself. Yes. And that is exactly why we are putting in place the the incre the huge transition that's underway now is to deal with these things. Senator Roberts, I accept that you're in a position where you can, you know, not agree um and but government is different. We have to respond to the issues that we are facing right now. And the fact is we are replacing essentially and rebuilding an energy system in this country because of old aging infrastructure that is breaking down. And those investments are about building an energy system that works and has the lowest and most affordable energy on offer u which is the shift to renewables. I accept you don't agree
>> I go by data from around the world.
>> Well, you go with selective data. Senator Roberts, I've sat in front of
you.
number of years and I would say you use certain data and not all data.
>> Minister, if the driver of women's poor housing is income, housing supply and family violence, what does linking them to the climate change agenda achieve for those women that tackling those issues directly would not? >> Why don't you attack the real issues
>> in relation to specifically >> Jen? Well, we are Senator Roberts. We are doing like if you if you actually look at all of the things that we have done in trying to improve and support women um whether it's in women's safety, whether it's in women's wages, whether it's in women's health, whether it's in housing that's appropriate for women, whether it's in ensuring that they get the jobs and training that they need, whether it's making the child care system work for women. All of those things are dealing with the real life issues that women face across the economy. Um the fact that we are also responding to a changing climate and rebuilding an energy system in this country is also happening. Those things are all happening together.
>> Do you understand the difference between natural variability and change in a in a statistics? Do you understand the difference between natural variability, cyclical variability, and process change
>> Well, I agree that we we disagree on the science around the climate.
>> We have 24 24,000 data sets from around the world that show not one physical attribute of climate is changing. They're just varying naturally and cyclically. So, let's move on. If we woke up tomorrow and the world had completely forgotten about the two words climate change, these problems would still exist. Telling Australians that weather affects women more than men doesn't house a single woman or pay a single power bill. Is the office for women advocating for women or using women to advocate for the government's
at um the work that we have done since coming to government it has been around and it's outlined in our working for women uh strategy which has a focus on economic equality women's health the role that care plays in the economy
>> ending gender based violence
>> ending gender based violence which is the major issue affecting women economically and socially in this country. If you that is the focus of the work that we have been doing Senator Roberts um the interaction of gender policy and climate policy you know I would argue is real but the focus have been on those other areas that I've just talked about and outlined through the working for women
>> okay thank you
>> strategy
>> I must Roberts can I just check in with you how much uh how much more time you're going to need we're just behind in the agenda and we need to move along
>> probably two or three minutes.
>> Okay, please go ahead.
>> I must say I'm a little perplexed by the approach taken by the Office of Women when it supports non-biological women, trans women, biological males, and seems to ignore the calls for women only spaces for privacy and safety by straight and lesbian biological women. When those women are in conflict over access to women's spaces, which groups do you support? Because I'll tell you what, English correctional facilities have resolved this by placing trans women offenders, biological males, in men's prisons. Men's prisons. I've not heard of a trans male, a biological female being violated in a women's prison. Concerns have been raised with me by women if and remember this is coming from a woman by Concerns have been raised with me by women if a trans woman were to be placed within the female population of a women's prison as an issue of safety of the other residents. There are certainly reports of violence by trans women towards biological women. One would think that the office of women would stand up for the protection of biological women and this is happening in English correctional facilities have woken up to their mistake. Has common sense returned and prevailed in in the UK and why do you support uh trans women rather rather than women?
>> Senator Roberts, you would understand that corrections is a matter for states and territories.
>> Why do you support it though? Oh,
Senator, >> I don't support we we don't have a role in in making corrections policy.
>> So, is your office really the office for trans women?
>> Well, that's Senator Roberts. Um, a lot of these questions were dealt with last night through the attorney general's portfolio. Um, and I can be very clear to you about the issues that the office for women works on. It is those areas of housing, health, the role of care, how do women get good jobs, how to get they get paid well in jobs, >> and we well yes I was getting to women's safety and women's safety which is overwhelmingly and why you know impacts on all of those other areas that I just talked about that is the work of the office for women uh and um they are focused on and we are focused on dealing with the practical you know solution ions to the problems faced by women in this country.