Senate Finance and Public Administration Legislation Committee, , 2:23:09 to 2:47:10
The Office for Women is questioned on the gender impact of tax reforms and small business policy advice.
Topics: Government spending, Workplace culture
Speakers: Senator Maria Kovacic, Senator The Hon Katy Gallagher, Speaker 15, Senator Karen Grogan, Speaker 16
>> Hello everybody. Good morning. Um and I would like to welcome uh Senator the Honorable Katie Gallagher, Minister for Women, Minister for Government Services, Minister for Finance and Minister for the Public Service. Um I would like to welcome Miss Pava Ramen, executive off director of the office for women and uh the other officers attending with you this morning and also Miss Christine Castley. There we are. Uh chief executive officer of the workplace gender equality agency and the officers that are attending with you. Minister, would you care to make an opening statement?
>> No. Thank you.
>> Um Mr. Rama, would you care to make an opening statement? >> No, thank you. Okay, we'll go directly to questions then and we'll go to Senator Kassic.
>> Thank you. Good morning everyone. Thank you for your time today. Um since the budget um there continues to be justifiable alarm from small businesses around what they perceive to be um the government's attack on their business models. At the last estimates, the Office for Women confirmed that it hadn't considered the impacts of the changes to trusts and CGT um on women in business. Um since the budget, has the office undertaken any analysis on the number of women expected to be impacted by the CGT changes in the
So can I just start by saying the office for women's role is to provide uh me with advice uh to support my work um through all of the relevant cabinet committees. Um and they do so um they are not it is not their job to specifically go out and consult on partic on other departments particular policy areas that is not their role. So no, there would have been no update because it is not their role. They do not have responsibility for small business or for tax reform.
>> But they do have responsibility for the impacts to women of of policy across um a portfolio of departments. So my >> I I get to ask the questions. So the
minister gets to ask them. Well, just to be clear, their job is to support me in my role as minister for women uh into in supporting my role in decision making across government and supporting other departments in the policy work that they do, but they do not have responsibility for it.
>> So, as the minister, you haven't directed um them to undertake research on the impacts of these tax changes on women?
>> No. Um no, but I don't direct them. That is not the way I operate. I um I discuss with the office of women um you know policies that the government's considering and they provide advice to me uh to support my role.
>> Okay. So, and I'm not suggesting that the office for women should be responsible for developing tax policy. I'm not suggesting that. But the office describes itself as a central gender equality institution within the Australian public service. Am I correct And so surely part of that responsibility is understanding how significant government policy decisions affect women particularly when women themselves have publicly relay raised concerns about those impacts.
>> Yes. And um you know not not talking about the advice that uh specific advice that the office for women um provide me but they provide you know I I when making decisions about changes for reforms or policy I um draw on the advice of the office for women uh and u that could include impacts on women who work in particular enterprises but also um the you know I guess the the benefits that um certain reforms may bring for women. It's, you know, all it's all-encompassing is what I'd say in the advice that I'm provided.
>> Sure. Did you draw on them for advice in relation to the impacts on small business women in relation to the tax
>> Well, I certainly drew on them in relation to tax reform, but I'm not going into the specifics of the advice. I think the other thing I'd draw your attention to is the office of women have been working with treasury about uh about the tax expenditure and insight uh statement I think it's called uh to get a better understanding of how uh particular tax settings affect women and I think if you look at that overall uh not necessarily talking about individual women operating in particular parts
>> I'm not asking about individual women I'm asking about women in small business so that is um a sector it is a large cohort. It is the cohort that will be most impacted by the tax changes. So, I'm not expecting you to be seeking um guidance on um how a pay as you go um uh worker will be impacted by um CGT changes or trust discretionary trust changes. I expect that those questions would be related to small business women. So my my question to the office of women then is has the minister at any time asked for your guidance in relation to the impacts of the tax changes on womenowned businesses or small business
>> Well the responsibility for that so I I'm trying to be helpful.
>> It's a yes or no answer. Either
>> I'm not going to go into the advice that the officer women provide me. They provide me
>> respectfully. I think that's our purpose
talking about the specific nature of a device. I am telling you that the Office for Women briefed me on issues around gender equality in across a full range of portfolio areas, but the questions that you raised specifically u matters
>> Yeah. So, I appreciate you're not going to disclose the specifics um of advice provided through the budget process, and I'm not asking for that. And I would really like to direct my questions to the Office for Women Officials now, if if possible, Minister. Miss Lee, since the budget was handed down, has the Office for Women undertaken any work or been asked for guidance um to establish how many Australian women are likely to be affected by the capital gains tax
>> Um, Senator, um, Megan Leahy, first assistant secretary, Office for Women. I will have to take the details of of that one on notice. Certainly we are not running sort of a large project in relation to to women in small business but there may have been um some some sort of small pieces of advice that we that we have have provided.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah. And there is I mean I think there's u in budget submissions online there are a number of women's organizations who have uh provided advice that we draw upon um and predominantly you know many organizations um draw out the fact that often tax concessions across the board predominantly uh you know positively benefit more men than women and that's the nature of you know higher incomes and the benefits that tax concessions draw as you go up the income scale.
Um, another question related to that. Did the just so I have some clarity here on process. Did the office for women provide advice um to you minister or the question to the office to the minister on the policy in preparation for cabinet and ERC consideration of the policy particularly as it would impact small business um women or womenowned
businesses. Well, that would go to the advice that I get in my role to support my role as uh a cabinet minister and I can confirm the officer women regularly brief me on matters uh on the agenda discussed through those committees. They do that is um you know a very useful part of the office of women and their support of me. My
specific question relates to whether or not um the impacts on small business women or women or women small business owned sorry I'll start again businesses owned by women whether there was any specific consultation or impact done in relation to these tax changes or not. So I'm not asking more broadly or the broad consultation. I'm asking about whether or not there was any analysis or whether you sought any guidance or advice about how these tax changes would specifically impact women who owned and ran small
businesses. I I am not going to the nature of the advice that the office for women provides me. I am answering it in the sense that I have regularly received advice around as you would expect around taxation arrangements and its impact on women.
>> Okay. So the office is responsible for coordinating the implementation of the government's working for women strategy right which spec specifically identifies women's economic equality and security as a priority right have I understood that correctly so how can the office monitor progress against that objective if it doesn't establish the gender impacts of significant government policy decisions like this one. How is that possible?
>> Well, I don't accept that that we don't we don't consider the specific gender impacts. So, that I don't accept that.
>> But you don't assess it.
>> Well, that is not that is not the evidence I have given this morning. That is not the evidence.
>> Thanks, Senator. So in terms of impacts, gendered impacts as the minister um inferred before, the office for women is the sort of is the steward of the gender responsive budgeting system under which and as outlined in the B pores, agencies responsible portfolios responsible for the policies being developed are required to undertake their own gender analysis and if certain criteria are met, undertake gender impact assessment.
>> Okay. Then that takes me to let me put it a different way. How many formal consultations has the office for women undertaken since 2022 specifically with women in small business um startups, entrepre entrepreneurial sectors, you know, the whole scope and are you able to provide us a list of those engagements so we have actually have an understanding of
>> We can certainly take that on notice, Senator.
>> Okay. Would you be able to give me a a rough estimate
>> since 2022? Yeah, >> probably not.
Yeah, I mean we we senator we do a lot of consultation and engagement with a range of with a range of stakeholders um on on a range of on a range of issues in relation to formal consultations certainly and I I will have to check um there was consultation undertaken to inform to inform working for women the strategy very significant widespread consultation um so that is that is a formal process that that we have undertaken so we can I we we can confirm through that through that process and through some of the other processes we've run subsequently.
>> So that question was asked by Senator Cash on the 27th of May this year and it was also taken on notice and I'll I'll read to you the answer that we received on notice. Um the office of women also engages regularly with a range of stakeholders including the national women's alliances to ensure lived experience of women and experts informs implementation of working for women. So we weren't told how many. >> We were given a general answer in general consultation, general discussion with stakeholders.
>> Sorry, partner Ramen, executive director of the office for women. Um that time period would also take in the women's economic equality task force where there was substantial consultation with with a range of stakeholders. So if you want the numbers from that and from working for women, we'd be very happy to provide
that on. This is what I'm really trying to understand is um >> what if anything informed decision making of government as to the impact of the budgetary changes um on women specifically on businesses owned by women
>> and can I just repeat here the office for women are not responsible for that policy that is the department of treasury um you know and it's the treasurer the questions around small business would be for the small business minister. The office for women are not responsible for those policy decisions and in fact we have spent a long time trying to get the message across government that gender equality is everyone's responsibility. Um and that 45 people thereabouts in the office of women are not is not the place where the this work gets done. it gets done in the treasury office for women will work with the treasury in that instance in this scenario and provide advice to me.
>> I understand that minister I you and you've said that before but what I have also said >> is that um this office's role is to specifically identify women's economic equality and security as a priority and they provide that advice to you. The government made changes in the budget that specifically impacts small businesses. It specifically impacts women in small business. Entrepreneurial women have indicated that this is a big impact to them. I'm curious then why you do not seek the guidance of the agency that is effectively charged um with assisting the economic participation and equality of women the office of women to give you guidance on the impacts to women of that government
>> already answered that I do get advice from the office for women um and that does inform the positions and the discussions I have at the table so you can't just because I'm trying to say that it's not office for women. Tax reform is not office for women's responsibility does not mean that they don't brief me on aspects of the tax system and as its impacts on women. They do uh and they get involved with the work that other departments do. The tax expenditure uh statement is one example of that where the office for women are involved and in fact we've tried hard in that statement to explore the differential impacts of those tax concession arrangements on women and now we report that in that statement that is because the office for women have done that job and what and worked with treasury and what that shows is that overall tax concessions tend to to benefit higher income uh households or or individuals and that they disproportionately um tend to be men
>> in this case. Um many of them are women.
>> We'll rotate the call if you want to
>> Yeah, if I can just finish that I did have a number from the work the uh working with women alliance uh and the national foundation of Australian women. There's a number of organizations that have provided submissions to the government supporting uh tax reform because of the gendered nature of tax concessions.
>> None of those were small business women.
>> Well, they're organizations working for women alliance.
>> My question relates to women who own and
run small business. >> We're talking around the gendered impact. So to have organizations that have expertise in that area, I'm just drawing your attention to the fact that there is quite a number of organizations that support the reforms because of the gendered nature of of the beneficiaries of tax concessions.
>> Chair, we have limited time. I would
appreciate the opportunity. >> No one is no one is no one is cailing your time, Senator Kassic, >> at all. Um but we will maintain some behaviors here that are respectful and we will allow Senator Kassic. Don't start talking over me now because that is just proving the point. >> If we can all just have some respect and give each other enough time, I will give you as much time as you need to ask your questions, but the minister will also have the time she needs to answer them. So, if you would like to complete your line of questioning and then we will rotate the call because there are other senators in the room. That is not to say we will not come back to you but that is the manner in which we will proceed.
>> I will proceed Sher if I may make a point.
>> Yes of course.
>> Um I do nothing but conduct myself respectfully in this environment and if we are going to call me out for speaking over someone then perhaps that same should occur. And I'm here asking questions. I should have the opportunity to ask those questions and for those questions to be answered and for me to have the opportunity to complete my questions as well.
>> And no one is stopping you from completing your questions as I've said and I did not just refer to you. I referred to the room. We will conduct this hearing in a fashion where we respect everyone's opportunity to either correct the record, say whatever they feel they need to say, ask their questions, and answer them. Senator Kassic, if you would like to finish up this block, that would be lovely.
>> Did the Office for Women review a gender impact analysis on the legislation which creates a minimum tax of 30% on discretionary trusts?
Sorry, can you just repeat that? Is that Did the Office of Women
>> Did the Office of Women review a gender impact analysis on the legislation which creates a minimum tax of 30% on
>> Yeah. Well, I mean, I I I've tried to deal with this um in the earlier questions. It's a similar um it's a similar set of questions. We don't talk about the advice that's provided uh to government.
>> It's a specific question if I could ask the agency.
>> Well, and again the agency isn't responsible for doing the gender analysis of another department's >> policy. This is it isn't it's not office for women that do that. It's the department, it's the agency that brings the submission is required uh to undertake depending on the nature of the policy that they're developing or the decision that's being taken a gender impact analysis or um what's the other the threshold or just gender analysis. It's >> analysis gender assessment. It's the different uh sorry I just don't have it in front of me but depending on the size and scale of the change um the departments themselves are responsible for that. It's not the office for women
>> and I didn't ask that again
>> You said did they undertake a gender impact analysis?
>> No I my and I asked the question two times and if they could perhaps answer the question it might be different. I said did they review a gender impact analysis? So I know it is not their job to do the gender impact analysis. I wanted to know whether the office of women reviewed a gender impact analysis on the legislation which creates a minimum tax of 30% on discretionary trusts. And that is the third time I've asked that same question.
>> And I'm trying
>> not whether they wrote it, whether they have the responsibility, whether they were provided one by the agency that was responsible and whether they reviewed that document to give you advice as to what the impacts would be, the economic impacts on women of that tax change in the budget.
>> Senator, I know it's frustrating, but we do not discuss um advice that we give towards ERC or cabinet processes. But
going back to my earlier advice on tax reform in general, yes, they do provide advice uh to me uh as the minister for women and have during my time in that role. Your question relates specifically to a piece of legislation. Um and I don't want to go, you know, in in relation to the decisions we took around trust that was a budget decision. Um and um I was appropriately briefed for those discussions at budget time.
Thank you. And and just to clarify again to the Office of Women, I'm not seeking for you to tell me what the advice was that you gave to the minister or to government. I simply want to know if you are asked to review such a document in giving any advice. So, I'm not asking to tell me what you said, what the detail of it was. Simply, were you asked to review agenda impact analysis in relation to the impact of the 30% minimum tax on discretionary trusts?
>> So, Senator, I I think that would still go to not the content of advice, but the nature of advice that was presented to the the cabinet or the the ERC in the context of budget of budget deliberations. Um the minister mentioned before the tax expenditure insight statement which which does contain public information on um on the sort of benefits of a range of tax tax subsidies and um expenditures including including trusts capital gains and and negative
>> Okay. So the government's working for women strategy acknowledges that access to capital remains a significant barrier for women led businesses and that's um commonly known through industry as well. So why I'm trying to ask these questions and get the answers is to get an understanding of what work was done and if advice was sought um in relation to as part of your you have a women's economic policy branch is that correct? Right. So did they undertake have they then undertaken any work since the budget to assess whether the tax reforms could affect women's abilities to establish, finance, grow, or sell their businesses? So noting you can't tell me what advice you gave before, you can't even tell me whether you've reviewed a particular type of document, can you then tell me what you've done afterwards and if that economic branch has been charged with doing any of that
again, Senator, finish off we do need to
>> Um, thank you, Senator. >> Yeah, thank you, Senator. I think what I what I can say is certainly um we have engaged with the tax reforms including tax reforms made through the most recent budget and considered their impacts for women writ large rather than I guess just specifically focusing on on women on women as small as small business owners. But certainly we are we are very interested and engaged in in policy around tax and a number of other
Thank you, Chair.