Senate Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee, , 3:16:33 to 3:37:57
The hearing addresses the government's response to the Bondi attack and the ongoing negotiations with states regarding a national gun buyback scheme.
Topics: Bondi attack, Firearms, Public safety
Speakers: David Shoebridge, Stephanie Foster PSM, Hamish Hansford, Hon Jonathon Duniam, Hon Murray Watt, Brooke Hartigan, David Pocock, Jana Stewart, Malcolm Roberts
leading to Bondi. I mean, is it the government's view that
leading to those events that occurred in Bondi last year? So, Senator, um because there is a an ongoing police investigation into those events, we are not able to comment in any way about motivation or or the facts around that um so as not to prejudice the conduct of that um >> process. Sorry, I cut you off. >> You're okay. Okay. Then how have we how has the government determined its
response including in the legislation
that we passed as a parliament two weeks
ago now if we don't reflect on what might have been contributing factors or causes or driving factors I think I mean you've seen many ministers including the prime minister
based on what appears to the the
motivation of the alleged offenders >> um and uh and the the method that they used. And so I think in a general sense what I can say is that all the evidence publicly would suggest um that um hateful ideology um uh promoted by Islamic State um would seem to be the motivation. Again, I'm say in criminal proceedings. um and that the the method then was the use of firearms and that's why the government based its response on both limbs and why we would have liked unanimous support for that from the parliament. >> Indeed I >> and and clearly Senator the target of the attack >> um made it clear that anti-semitism needed to be a very big part of the response. M yes indeed I accept that. Um I mean does risks associated with Islamist extremism in this country? Uh it's a separate issue to Bondi but in general terms that is something the department recognizes a serious problem in Australia. It it is Senator and as I was um explaining to Senator Roberts before um we um uh receive not only the public assessments that Azio makes about um threats to security in Australia but a range of classified intelligence
reporting. All of that informs our understanding of the risks posed by extremist ideologies. But I think there is it it is very clear publicly that um extremist ideologies um are of concern um of a very serious nature. M um there's been a lot of reflection obviously in though the department have been busy with the preparation of the legislation in partnership with AGD but
on reflection were there any elements missing from the response or settings of home affairs or its agencies that we can
talk about here in the leadup to Bondi. So, Senator, clearly that is very much the focus of the Royal Commission. Um and to the extent that um as the Royal
Commission goes through um the events leading up to the attack um there may well be um uh either evidence or reflections um and I think the prime minister minister has said um when you look back you will always find things that you could have done more of or differently. Um what we did do, Senator, in response to the raising of the threat level um in
24 was to renew the counterterrorism um uh in 25 sorry was to renew the counterterrorism wasn't the assessment in 24
sorry so in response to the the changed threat level in 24. In early 25, we issued a new counterterrorism strategy which went to the heart of the issues
which the director general had highlighted in his threat assessment in 24 um and uh I won't try and um paraphrase that um in in his absence but you know he has been very clear that the threat of uh lonewolf actors um was increasing ing um and uh that online
radicalization, rapid online radicalization, the the um increasing
engagement of youth uh in that um uh extremism, all of those factors were contributing to the raising of that threat level and all of those were addressed in the new strategy that we released in early 25. the royal commission will traverse this fairly extensively has there been any work in preparation for that um because
I mean of course we don't have to wait for a royal commission for an agency to have a look inward and say hm this could be changed has any of that work been undertaken I'm assuming it has. So, Senator, um I guess I want to put that in in part of a continuum. Um we are always looking at new intelligence, new information and thinking about whether the programs or the policies we have in place are are fit for purpose. Um and Mr. Hansford can talk to you a little bit about the process that we go through with states and territories around for example our countering violent extremism programs. Um clearly post Bondi um all of us have been thinking about where could we strengthen where could we tighten and that work will continue to um to take to
to to be undertaken as we prepare ourselves to work through that with the >> Sure. And and so I suppose that is really the nub of my question. Post 14 December and those terrible events. What specific bodies of work I accept that there is always continual reflection and efforts to improve. Has there been any specific body of work undertaken initiated by the department or its agencies about areas of improvement for example? So, Senator, I think um my sort of headline response to that would be um it's very early days um as we as we start to look at that we are doing that work in the context of preparing ourselves for the Royal Commission. Um >> so, so work has been initiated and it is linked to preparation for the Royal Commission that those two are inextricably linked. There's been no other internal effort. So um Senator, we I convened the Australian New Zealand Countterism Committee on the week of the 5th of January, having convened them on
asked the very question knowing what we know now about the Bondi incident, what does that mean in terms of the priorities of um that group's work and that the the group is all law enforcement across Australia and New Zealand and all the policy representatives responsible for counterterrorism. And so we're we're
doing a range of work to both our work program through the A&Z CTC but equally um we've we've commenced our trienal review of our arrangements um which was planned before the Bondi incident but we we have um um implemented that work um after the Bondi incident and that's very much the focus of how we're looking at Bondi saying are the arrangements fit for purpose is our work program fit for purpose and we did um uh late last year actually have an offsite with all of the A&Z CTC to say given the threat environment and the change for that we're seeing are we postured in the right way um particularly looking at online radicalization and um particularly looking at the $106.2 million that was um allocated in the CT strategy in January of 2025 and its um implementation across
jurisdictions. So a range of work that both had preceded Bondi but then has occurred since. >> And I wouldn't senator want to leave the impression that we are only doing this work because of the royal commission. The point I'm trying to make is that that is now the the channel through
which we will prosecute those >> ideas, policies etc. >> No assumption made here. Thank you. >> Thank you Senator. >> Thank you very much chair. Um and thank you for your time this afternoon. uh given the firearm uh firearms regulations uh changes in the combating
anti-semitism Hayden extremism bill uh 2026 uh were incredibly rushed. I have some questions about implementations of changes in visions in that legislation. Um and I understand and I've been
watching questions from um senators Mc Mackenzie and others earlier that gun buybacks are predominantly for the states and um territories and those discussions are those are sort of currently under discussion but I'm interested what approach the government is taking on the compensation of firearms. Are you looking at sort of fair market value or are you looking at just setting a price for say rimf fires, center fires, shotguns? What's the approach there? Senator, we we are looking at a range of options for
compensation and we have been talking with states and territories about the parameters of compensation um including meetings um that have met um since the Bondi incident. uh and we are working through that level of detail in support what might then be presented to national cabinet. >> I think that the short answer is senator still working through the options. There hasn't been a decision made yet.
>> Can you could you share what options you're working through? Um that that
options we're working up that so so I think we can give sorry why can't you share that >> is that will form the basis of our advice to government >> but it's not yet >> but um senator it it is essentially being worked up for advice to government and we wouldn't normally discuss the content of advice to government in this
forum. So even before something goes to government, you can't discuss it if it may form advice to government. >> Well, it is very >> seems like a real catch all. >> No, no, no. It's very distinctly being prepared for government. >> When will that be provided to government? Well, we're providing a a range of advice both both on the policy parameters and funding implications to
to um the government and is continuing to be provided to government as as recently as um yesterday I believe. So you can't talk about anything then because it's all advice to government or what's the >> it it's it's it's a it's a long-standing practice in estimates that >> officials don't provide information about advice being provided to government >> minister you would have seen in the
Holmes was pretty scathing about this sort of um approach from governments where you just hide advice because you say well this is advice to government she had some very strong recommendations um to deal with this and I just don't think this helps. This was rush legislation and now when we try and find details we're just being told this advice to government. Does this sort of cut it for Australians? >> I I don't think that anyone is hiding anything. The the government is in the process of making a decision about this. department presents to it and the department is doing that work now. fair market value as one of one of the options >> center? I think that's another way of asking as to what the content of our advice to government is and unfortunately I I can't provide that. >> What what's the government's position on compensation to businesses that will be >> by this legislation? So Senator again um
that forms you know the the elements of the the buyback package um are currently being worked up negotiated with states will be provided to government and there will be a decision that will of course
>> Can you tell me when that will be compensation? >> So as Mr. Hansford said um uh we are in pretty regular contact um with our minister about the progress of our um negotiations and and he of course um
um uh which also has been discussing um these issues. >> That's I'm sorry I'm I'm I'm really not so unclear. like is there does this end at some point? Is there a date where you want to give the final advice or what's why is this such a big secret? Well, Senator, it's not not a secret. We are working with jurisdictions, but I can reflect that the prime minister in his media release on the 19th of December has put the date um for us to work to for ambitious new gun reforms no later than March 2026 and for the reforms to be legislated by 1 July 26. So that's guiding our provision both of advice on the parameters of um the gun buyback and the issues that we're working through.
a complex issue that we're working through with states and territories. >> Do do you have a target on how many guns um firearms you think will be bought back through this scheme if states and territories sort of buy into it or have you modeled that? depends on the national. >> Yeah. So, Senator, that that depends on
the the final agreement on the parameters of the gun buyback scheme. And we have done modeling for the options about how many firearms would be captured dependent on who signs up to the um gun buyback scheme and and what parameters. >> And so, what's the range for that? say mean Queensland and Tasmania. What are you what are you sort of looking at with other jurisdictions? So Senator, that's very much um uh still under negotiation. Um and I think again it gets us, you know, to be providing um parameters that may not yet have gone to government and haven't been decided on. Uh takes me fair and square into the advice to government problem again. >> Okay. So the the parliament's modeling is behind them, how this will potentially work or not work. You can't provide any range of this is how many firearms we we think that this will um so the parliament senator has passed enabling legislation for the gun buyback scheme, which gives you the the parameters of the date. The parliament would have to also pass any fiscal implications as well as the next issue um that the government might bring forward to the parliament. >> Okay. Will will ammunition be included in the buyback scheme? >> That's one of the um issues um uh that is being considered. Senator, >> the legislation allows for it. >> Uh Senator, um yes. So the way that legislation set up the buyback scheme is that uh it obviously draws it directly back to why we would have it reforms with the states and territories through national cabinet uh and then within that provide certain um uh instruments and powers to the minister about how we might make arrangements with the states and territories and in that it will talk
about um the scope and range of the buyback. So the the legislation allows for that flexibility but none of that has been decided yet. >> Okay. It's just it's just I find it worrying that ammunition hasn't been a part of this conversation at all from the government. Um and you'd have to think if all these firearms are bought back,
if every firearm owner has, I don't know, a couple of boxes of ammunition up because it's been so rushed, so short on details. you've created so much anxiety amongst law- abiding firearm owners and even the gun control groups are saying, "Hey, if we had more time, we could have done this better." So, I'm just really hoping that this process results in a I guess a bit more clarity for everyone and and interested when will that when will people become more clear about the the path ahead. So, Senator, um uh in response to your first question about ammunition, I did indicate that that was one of the issues under consideration about which there has not yet been a decision. Um as soon as this advice um is um considered by our government and goes to national cabinet, then uh it will be it will be clear.
>> Sure. And will this does this require every state and territory to sign up or will you proceed on a um jurisdiction byjurisdiction basis on on those agreements? >> So that the legislation sets up for the gun buyback. The then decisions that the government takes and negotiates with states and territories is the next step and then states and territories will either sign up or not sign up to the >> No, I understand that. But will the
know most of the jurisdictions sign up will you just proceed with the >> So Senator that will be a decision for government at the time at the moment it would be speculative for us to to answer that. >> Okay. Can I just one final >> one final question?
>> actually I might must ask the minister. Minister, will will the government proceed um if you get you know most of the
states and territories on board or will you >> Well, as Ms. Foster has said, that's that's a matter yet to be determined by the government. >> That's what I'm asking you. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's yet to be determined. We have not decided that yet. So, I can't give you that answer. >> Okay. What I can say and the prime minister has said is that um that buyback scheme and the other measures will be only as strong as the weakest state and we would strongly encourage all states to be part of it. I've seen my home state of Queensland as recently as yesterday. The state government there has um suggested that uh they won't be participating and they won't be picking up other aspects and I've repeatedly encouraged the Queensland government to to be part of this because we want to work across the country to make Australians safe. >> And just maybe just finally, can I just get a clarifying point from sorry chair um officials? One of the concerns that came out in the in the brief consultation that I was able to do on this bill um was around uh firearm owners that reload and some of the lack of [snorts] clarity in the details of the bill. There was concerns that people, you know, going online searching for reloading advice, different, you know, ways to to do things could get caught up in these laws. And can you give me a sort of really definitive um answer that it does not cover people searching, reloading? Uh yes, Senator, that's a straightforward answer.
Ammunition is not included in the
definitions uh in the bill that go to the online material that'd be used to elicit manufacturing. So, you know, we understand people repack their own ammunition. That's legal and state and territory laws. Um so, that's not in the bill in the act. [cough and clears throat]
>> Thank you very much. Thank you, Chair.