Senate Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee, , 5:31:44 to 6:03:01
Senators scrutinize the accuracy of meeting records and handwritten notes regarding ministerial briefings and interactions with non-government organizations.
Topics: Integrity, Privacy, Freedom of information
Speakers: Unknown Speaker, Stephanie Foster PSM, Hon Jonathon Duniam, David Shoebridge, Gavan Reynolds AO
could uh could go to the criminal uh uh proceedings that are underway and not knowing uh what may or may not be sensitive, I'm not in a position to
how telling us when or if the minister was briefed about them or one or other of them and the dates on which that happened could have any impact on
the going to ask this question. When was the minister first briefed, if at all? about the acrams or either of them as potential or actual terrorism threats. >> So, Senator, I have nothing to add to my further evidence. I do not know what might or might not prejudice the criminal proceedings and therefore I'm not in a position to answer questions that might go to them. >> Well, Secretary, you don't get to choose when and to respond or not to respond.
if you wish to take a public interest immunity claim. The chair articulated how that happens at the beginning of the meeting. So again, I'm going to ask
briefed about the acrams or either of them as potential or actual terrorism threats. >> I'll take that on notice, Senator. Um,
was the minister informed at any time that a former AIO agent had very sorry, I'll say that again. Was the minister informed at any time that an AIO agent had deep concerns about the ideology
and the potential actual terrorism ideology of the Agrams
>> Uh Senator, my um response to the previous question applies to this also >> Mhm. What if any coordination occurred between home affairs and any of AIO AFP and the New South Wales police regarding the acrams or
What role does home affairs play in monitoring individuals who travel to the Philippines and to potential ISIS hotspots or training centers in the Philippines? Do
such movements? Senator, there is a a process um uh which involves um a a system of alerts um which is managed by the border force. >> All right. And >> I I would note though, Senator, that the Philippines as a as a destination um is is not an unusual destination as in the Philippines as a total country
>> Yes. But of course, if somebody has been because they may have actual or potential terrorism link links, would that ordinarily
trigger some kind of notice if they went to the Philippines given that there are parts of the Philippines um where terrorist activities and training occur?
there was uh nothing to add to my further answers on
that. I'm trying to understand going what if any checks are in place for home affairs if people have been identified by either
agency as having potential or actual ideology if there's any checks in place right now
>> when they travel to the Philippines um given about potential contact with ISIS and similar ideologies in the Philippines. I'm trying to work out what the situation now is. >> So, >> and it may be there isn't anything in place, but I think the public would like to know if there is something in place. So senator um the border force commissioner can outline to you um the
generic process uh which applies. I would make the point that in doing so we are making no comment on this particular
>> Mr. Reynolds I note the invitation from the secretary but I'd appreciate you answering my question. >> Uh Gav Reynolds, Australian Border Force Commissioner. Good afternoon, Senator.
Uh, as the secretary uh articulated, we
use an alert system on the border. The alert system relates to individuals. If we receive any information about an individual that they're um moving to conduct a criminal act or coming back into Australia to conduct a criminal
border. All right.
So, um, would it be usual if a security agency, whether it's the
New South Wales Police, the Australian Federal Police or Azio, had evidence that somebody in Australia um was under investigation for potential terrorist links and terrorist ideology?
them being on the alert list? Would you ordinarily expect that information to be provided to border force? >> Senator, all alerts are unique. It will absolutely depend on the individual circumstances. Well, indeed, but the fact that somebody is under investigation for potential or actual terrorism
would that meet the threshold, the statutory threshold for them to be put >> Senator, that's a hypothetical question. It will absolutely depend on the individual circumstances associated with the individual. >> What is the statutory threshold? What's
the test? You manage it. You must know what the test is to get on the alert. What is the test? >> Uh Senator, as I have been articulating, it is unique. It is different for each individual. >> The application may be different, but
test that's applied. What's the policy or statutory test that's applied before
somebody goes on the alert list?
Australian Border Force, the Department of Home Affairs, or another agency or a government department. >> Against what criteria? What statutory criteria? You can't just randomly pick someone up
their clothes. Maybe you can, but you
there's some statutory test, some goes on the alert list so that they're watched when they come and go out of the country. What are the criteria?
>> The criteria, Senator, is different for each individual circumstances. >> No, no, no. The application may be different but the criteria, the policy, the
threshold under which people go is is a is is is quite separate quite separate to the heterogeneous application of policy. There must be some statutory. If you don't know, that's okay. But there must be some statutory criteria or policy criteria
before someone is put on the alert list. What is the statutory or policy criteria before someone is put on the alert list? And if you don't know, I mean, you're just the commissioner. I understand there may be other people who do this, but if you don't know, say you don't know, but if you do know, tell us what um, the alert management system is a classified policy instruction. I will not be discussing it publicly. Well, I'm asking you to provide an
answer about what the criteria are. If you wish to take a public interest
chair articulated at the beginning of this meeting how to take a public interest immunity claim. So I'm going to ask you again. What is the criteria which border force applies before somebody is put on the alert? >> Senator, I will take your question on notice. >> Good luck to the Royal Commission. >> Unnecessary additional commentary.
Senator Shoebridge. Senator Dian. >> Thank you, Chair. So if we can come back to these notes, uh, Secretary, do you >> I do, Senator. >> You do? So, if I could take you to what is the second page of those notes and where those initials I pointed out before TB, can you read that first line, first dot point beyond the TB to me? >> C apostrophe meant to word crossed out find a way. And >> so, does that jog your memory at all as
to what that related to? >> No, Senator.
there that in any way I can take you to the the next line starts with the word delay? If you read that sentence, what do you know what delay we were talking about at that meeting?
>> Were there any action items out of this meeting? Not to my recollection, Senator. >> And so before you made the point that you keep notes with an action item, on the final page, there is another Uh can you step through the first line there? I believe it says contact in depth, short for department. Was that an action item at all?
So, um, Senator, I said before that I often took notes when there was, uh, an action. You know, I I made a note when I needed to follow up on an action. I will typically annotate that as an action and I have not in this case. So were any contact details provided to uh representatives of Save the Children at that meeting of any officer in the department? >> Not to my recollection, Senator. [cough] >> And do you know whether any follow-up
provided to save the children by any representative of the department following that meeting? >> Not to my knowledge, Senator. So out of
that meeting that you attended as secretary uh which we said is not unusual but probably not the norm. Who knows? Uh you there would be no record of any action item requested of departmental officials placed by you as a follow-up to attendance at that meeting. >> That's correct, Senator. And as I said, I will usually annotate a note um to make it clear that I have an action and that has not been done. Okay.
Um,
So, um, Senator, um, the only two times I've met with, I've met with um, Save the Children is in that meeting. them. >> That's correct, Senator. >> Okay. Uh have you uh asked for any representatives to meet on your behalf from within the department? >> No, I have not >> since that time. No. Okay.
Um was there any request at that meeting to not publicize the events of that meeting
meeting was related to? Not to my recollection, Senator. >> Okay. [clears throat]
The meeting of the other meeting that we
meeting notes of which occurred on the 13th of June 2025. Just with regard to those particular
uh notes that were provided on um estimates before. Were there any action items out of those notes? notes taken by this notetaker who was asked to leave the room and your notes records or documents in the department's >> I'm not sure I quite understand the question, Senator. So your notes, your
handwritten notes that were in a notebook that you were able to procure in response to in answer to a question on notice um are they are an official record of the department? Senator, I'd um have to seek advice uh on that from my uh uh experts in in that relevant area um in terms of you know exactly what constitutes an official record.
>> Um but certainly um uh as you can see they were handwritten notes not transcribed into a formal record. >> Yes. just uh given they were provided it
seemed to um indicate to me that there was a level of seriousness attached to them. I mean these are a formal record. The the other notes so they are an official record of the department's meetings. These ones of the 13th of June 2025 is that >> again Senator I I would just like to check with my officials about what exactly is is but but they they are a a record of the the meeting that happened as opposed to could or could not be comprehensive. Sure. >> I'm sure they're very comprehensive. Um but we'll never get to test that. Uh I just wanted to seek some guidance uh in relation to the outcome in which I would ask about the NZ YQ cohort. Is that two
outcome two or >> I think we typically do NZ YQ in three because of the crossover between the immigration and the border force elements, but I'm just looking to make
sure. Yes, that's correct. them. Um,
surveillance act. >> Is that something I can do here or is that >> you could we are still in outcome one? >> Well, how about two scar Paul Scarr? Did you have any in [clears throat] >> Miss Foster? Can I just I've been listening very closely to your discussion of your daily >> handing over the court. It's just one follow-up question. >> Sorry. >> Um, I've been listening very closely to your discussion with respect to your
word speculate that you'd be speculating about the content of the handwritten note. Given it's a contemporaneous note given you were the author of the note, uh, you're not in a position to at the very least say it's likely. It's more probabilities that probably means XY Z as opposed to using this term speculate which if you're reading someone else's handwritten note sure it' be speculation but it's your handwritten note it wasn't 10 years ago um you're extraordinarily
intelligent secretary uh you can't tell us what it's more likely than not when
you said c apostrophe me n t you more likely than not meant commitment. >> So senator the reason I am I'm hesitating uh is twofold. The first is that unless I know something to be a fact, um, I'm very reluctant to put it
forward. Um and with the passage of time um it's very difficult for me to recall
how that meeting played out. Whether for example I took notes for a short period and then not whether or not I put
initials beside everyone who spoke or not. And that's why I'm using the word
speculating because I don't know for a fact the answer to the questions that I'm being asked. >> Okay. >> Done. Senator Scott. >> Yep.