Senate Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee, , 2:41:42 to 2:55:57
The committee explores the development of firearm regulation advice for National Cabinet and the coordination between federal and state departments.
Topics: Firearms, National security, Public safety
Speakers: David Shoebridge, Hon Murray Watt, Unknown Speaker, Brian Hickey, Hon Jonathon Duniam, Hamish Hansford, Hon Bridget McKenzie, Jana Stewart, Senator Jonathon Duniam, Stephanie Foster PSM
Okay, we resume with outcome one. We'll proceed directly to questions and we'll
begin with Senator McKenzie. >> Thank you so much, Chair. Um, going back national security. The first time that we provided advice to the government was the 15th of December. >> What time?
>> Um,
I have to take the specific time on notice. >> Morning or afternoon? >> Morning. was we were having a discussion on that day with the department of the prime minister and cabinet who were compiling a range of information to support the prime minister at national
discussion throughout the day um I'm confident it started in the morning but
>> until we got to national cabinet and was
that verbal or a written brief
>> uh it's it started um verbally senator um and a number of discussions with the department of the prime minister and
Um and then um there was a written
document that we commented on. >> Yep. A written document were you the author of or was PMC?
>> PMC was the author of but we contributed
>> and who else had input into that brief. PMNC home affairs. >> Well, I can speak to home affairs input
into the information. >> Well, you could probably speak to who else had input into it. Um, I think PMC should speak to who had input into the document they prepared for the prime. >> Well, I don't have PMNC in front of me right now. I have you. >> Who else had input into the brief? >> So, Senator, Mr. Hansford can't speak on behalf of PMNC. Um, we can talk to you about our input. Um, but really PMNC knows uh who it coordinated with and where it sought input. >> So, did the AFP have input? Senator, the AFP will be um appearing later today. >> Um was the changes to regulations a there a request to work something up? >> So, Senator, um the the department has been working on firearms policy issues, including through a firearms policy
to the discussion with the department of range of different options which included um regulation.
in the bottom drawer.
>> Well it it's one of the things that we have been working on from a policy
perspective for some time. >> Right. Um,
with the acting deputy commissioner of the AFP and the director general of AIO. There was no mention of changes to
firearm regulations. Focus was appropriately on tackling anti-semitism. At his 7:22 a.m. morning press conference, the prime minister did not mention firearm regulation reforms.
A journalist at that press conference raised the need for a gun crackdown and
said, and I quote, "We'll look at whatever is necessary, but did not commit to or suggest that firearm
uh regulatory changes were going to be
considered. But by 200 p.m. as you know holding the press conference um following the national cabinet meeting there was obviously then an announcement about tougher gun laws. So, did someone from the Prime Minister's office following a question from the journalist at the 7:30 a.m. press conference suggest that we needed to be looking at firearm regulations in preparation for National Cabinet? >> So, Senator, I think Mr. has already outlined the the process by which prime minister and cabinet sought out input to prepare information for >> I'm worried about the timing this I I understand the process he's been very helpful with the process I'm interested in the timing and where uh that request was generated from was it >> um Senator Um I think as Mr. Hansford said um he doesn't have the precise timings of the conversations he had. Um
we can take that on notice and and look at that visav um the announcements over
the course of that day. Well, as I understand the evidence, there was something a policy being worked on in the separately uh over time. And it would seem to me from the evidence that's been presented that this was helpfully offered uh in response to a question, what can we do on firearm reforms? following the press conference. >> So, Senator, um I'll let Mr. Hans question we had in the in that immediate aftermath was what can and should we be doing? And as you know, there were a range of different proposals. But I'm very much interested in how this got on the agenda, Mr. Hansford. >> So I think from our perspective, the trigger was a request from the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet. >> Okay. Thank you. And then you were able to say we've been working on this. Yep. so PMNC, um not the AFP was my second question. So that's Thank you. You've confirmed that. Okay. Um just in terms of going through the areas of reform that um national cabinet discussed didn't agree to um and again the police minister's council's two subsequent meetings haven't agreed to anything other than to discuss options. Um, could you answer who proposed the limits on the number of guns being held by
individuals? Was that PMNC, Home Affairs or the AFP? I'm going to run through each of the suggested areas of regulatory change. >> So, um, >> just the limit on the number of guns >> on on the limit on the number of firearms. Um the the first answer to your question is we had a discussion where we spoke about different policy ideas including the limit on the number of firearms in in the background. Um my team had been pulling together policy options. Um I I believe that the limit for a number of firearms was one of those options in in our policy work. >> Okay. So that's a home affairs um limiting open-ended firearm licensing. Um Senator I think the answer for all of them is that we discussed with PMNC different options but that were then put into a paper by PMNC that we commented on. So for every option it it's if you look to the origin of the idea it was a collaborative effort between the two departments and that and prime minister and cabinet can talk to who else they spoke to. >> Who did you speak to?
Um, so I spoke to uh the deputy secretary of the department um Ellie Lawson and I spoke to the secretary of the department Steven Kennedy. >> Okay. So that's who you spoke to in PMNC when you were putting forward these ideas very quickly prior to a national cabinet meeting agenda. Um did you seek any feedback from anyone outside of home affairs? Um, no, no, I did not, uh, Senator. Um, because, uh, a
lot of the information that I was being provided, I knew came from discussions working group and Mr. Engel can um, outline the participants in that working group um, that have been worked on for some time. Um, so I came to the the input based on uh, a history of engagement and um, collaboration. So, just to be clear, the limits on the number of guns being held by individuals was um a policy that Home Affairs had already been working on. The limiting open-ended firearms licensing arrangements was also something the Home Affairs Department was already working on. Limiting the types of guns that are legal, including modifications, was a policy that the Home Affairs Department was already working on. And Australian Australian citizenship as a condition of holding a firearm license was also a policy that Home Affairs was already working on. Is that your evidence to us today? >> Um, Senator, I will check the specifics for every single item there. What I'd say is we we were working on firearms policy issues whether or not whether or not all of it's inclusive of all of the list. I'll I'll have to take on notice
and check >> I would check with Mr. Engel if I could given he's closer to the work that the firearm policy group is doing because I want to be really clear about these four policy suggestions that were thrown on the table at a national cabinet meeting. And I want to know if they were already part of a policy discussion and development process within home affairs
you through those four again? >> Uh no, that's all right, Senator. Uh so uh Alex Engel, acting first assistant secretary criminal justice division. Um uh along with uh what Mr. Hansford had said we were working on a number of things over years that is in the FWPWG gave to me to prepare myself for discussions with the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet. So it's fair
to say that each of the different ideas were discussed and then eventually ended up in a paper to support um the national cabinet discussions and so I think the answer for every one of those issues was
it was developed together with the department of the prime minister and
cabinet. Obviously we had input on every single one of those measures. >> Yeah. No, I appreciate it. I I'll have more further questions. >> Can I can I just add one thing? Um to be around the national cabinet meeting that was held on the 15th of December. Um it is clear from the communicate that was released from that meeting and I'm quoting first ministers agreed to strengthen gun laws across the nation and have commissioned their police
to develop options including those
some states trying to wriggle out of commitments that were made at that national cabinet meeting. And Senator McKenzie used words along the lines that there was no decision made >> at that national cabinet meeting and >> but [music] an agreement was reached to strengthen gun laws >> to develop options and I've got the police >> conversation also the statement says that first ministers also reiterated national firearms amnesty to reduce the number of unregistered firearms in the community. And of course, we've seen
some states not follow through on that. >> Thank you, Minister. >> Senator Roberts.