Senate Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee, , 0:08 to 44:25
The committee examines staffing shortages at NEMA and the allocation of disaster recovery funding for primary producers and local infrastructure.
Topics: Drought and disaster support, Public service staffing, Infrastructure
Speakers: Unknown Speaker, Speaker 3, Dr Jill Charker, Jana Stewart, Hon Jenny McAllister, Ross Cadell, Sanandan Dasgupta, Susan McDonald
Senator McAllister um thank uh through you uh Minister McBain and her office for keeping us informed as things were going through the season. Um whilst I was emergency shadow, not currently um but uh it it was great. We've been to some of the places you've met uh with Clint Curry in Western Queensland with Senator McDonald. uh that was also fire bombings were happening 400 meters from my home which was uh an interesting way to wake up to bushfire season but thank you for the government that that consultation um >> sorry to hear that Senator >> No and thank you to everyone who was out there. Um going to the substantive thing and and that you mentioned systems and governance. So let's stay there for a bit. Every time we come to an estimates more people phone my office and tell us stories and they are concerning. Uh Mr. Moon, have you or anyone in senior management advised staff that the agency is operating under significant financial constraint? So, um, Senator, I absolutely recognize in the current operating environment, all agencies across the Australian Australian, uh, public sector are operating in a tough fiscal environment. Um, it's especially evident in relation to the operations of the National Emergency Management Agency. And I think it's fair to say if we reflect back um on the three and a half years since the since the uh inception of the agency that brought together the Emergency Management Australia and the National Recovery and Resilience Agency, we've experienced some 215 events. Senator, if we look at that annualized or averaged at six per month, Senator and and that has been a challenge for the agency. Um we are certainly looking at how we manage that internally. We seek to obviously deliver a balanced budget which is the expectation across all agencies. But we need to understand that with the increased frequency of these events, the expectations that the agency will coordinate the Australian government's response to these crisis and importantly the work that we do on the ground with communities does put pressure on not only people but also the finances of the agency. Senator, >> have you advised the staff or any senior management advisor staff as the situation? >> Um, we we we have a um we regularly speak to staff and they regularly speak to us about the pressures that they have done over the past um recognizing um Senator um the pressures that it does place on the agency, we have instigated the functional review to actually look at a fitforpurpose model into the future that will allow us to scale into these particular events. We've developed an operating model with the staff and getting feedback from the staff and they have they have certainly fed back to us the pressures that they have looked at as well. We've developing an operating model that seeks to build those capabilities and take the pressure off staff during critical times. We've we have established an operational resource group at the highest levels to look at what are those what are those functions the agency need to perform during a crisis and what are those that we can depprioritize and that they are active operational measures that we take. We also seek to, if I can, uh, Senator, we of the agency so that we can surge additional resources into areas that are particularly under pressure. And I think over the course of the last estimates, obviously the crisis coordination team, the recovery teams, but we are certainly communicating with our staff about the
pressures and the steps that we an agency are taking to manage those. So, two of the stories I've been told in the last 3 months. One is that staff put together to go and buy cups and mugs from an op shop because there was no funds for um kitchen facilities left. Another one is that there was no tissues available in the building. So, they brought in toilet rolls to hand around his tissues. A third sorry a third one here is that someone who had the foresight to buy a notebooks in advance um someone was complaining that they were able to get favors by trading off notebooks because there were other notebooks they were were angry of the stockpile this person had >> is are we getting to that level in our fiscal management within Nema? >> Um Senator um I'm sorry that I have to hear that. Uh I really am and that's not how we attempt to manage the finances um within NEMA. Um certainly we are looking obviously to ensure that we have a team that can meet the expectations not only of government but also the community but also do it in a safe environment as well. And as I say, um, now that I'm aware of of those issues, which I haven't been, uh, aware of, I will certainly engage with our property team and also with our finance team to ensure that our teams are adequately resourced to to actually deliver on the important work that they have. Okay. On the background of this funding, did we did NEMA send two senior executive staff to Harvard, including course fees, travel, and accommodation? I would ask the uh if if I can I would I would uh refer that question if I can to the chief operating officer. Thanks Senator. >> Uh good morning Senator uh Sanandas Gupta acting chief operating officer Nema. uh senator if if you are looking at the allocation of resources. So we allocate resources uh the the funding envelope which we have been provided across groups and right up to the cost center manager level. So we basically allow the cost center managers to manage that funding envelope and determine the priorities along along that line. So as an example we we cater for all those sort of you know staffing supplier expenses everything is provided you know at at a holistic level to every cost center manager and then it's up to the cost center managers how they sort of prioritize the resources. So that's how allocation s sort of works uh in in Nema in in terms of uh the the travel which you're referring to uh I think I will I will get some details I think it might be in the 24 uh 2425 financial year and it's a matter it might uh I am just uh I I understand it might be a part of their performance
would have triggered that sort of you
know uh uh that that sort of training program. >> Okay. Are either of those people who went still employed by NEMA or working within NEMA? >> So so um if I can uh if I can answer that um one of those staff members is on seconment to another agency and one has left the agency. Senator, >> so while people are blowing their nose in toilet paper, two staff that leave the agency get to go to Harvard. Who made that decision that that was that was you you said this compartmentalized budget management? Was that you, Mr. Moon, or was that these people themselves that had that budget allocation? um Senator that that was that was part of their performance development uh agreement discussions and I did make the um decision on the basis of an allocated training and development budget that um they would uh attend some higher education. Uh in both cases it was at Harvard one was particularly centered on crisis management and involved the uh foremost experts around the year. The other one was a development opportunity, a leadership development. Sorry, Senator. >> Was there formal requirements to keep knowledge within the organization from those trips? Was there written reports, briefings, or inter capability uplift that came because of this? >> I'd have to ask the chief operating officer. Uh uh thank you, Senator. So there is generally no written requirement uh uh in relation to every trip or or a brief to be provided. How uh in in relation to the trainings which they attend or uh any overseas trip. However, the learnings from those trips are often it's it's an expectation that they will pass it on and and to the rest of the team members and that's a capability uplift measure. It concerns me that people are drinking out of op shop glasses while the organization has enough money to fund and I'd like to know on notice later on today if we know what the cost of those two trips were if we can um that we don't have a formal thing to enshrine that knowledge that is gained within the organization. That is a concern for me. I understand people move on. I understand someone has been seconed and someone has moved on. But where I'm hearing stories of staff telling they're they're you know they're envious of a person who bought notepads that was um when I'm hearing that and this that concerns me that we're losing this knowledge so quickly. So part of your review I'd love if you went and had a look at that and I'm happy to rotate now if uh looking at the chair looking at me I have another batch for later. Thank you. >> Yeah. Thank you. I've just got um a couple of questions from me before I uh rotate the call. Uh the bushfires in Victoria have devastated many communities across the state. What supports have been rolled out? >> If I can, Chair, I would ask Dr. Jill Chaka as the um the leader of the um disaster recovery and resilience group to answer that program question. >> Thanks. >> Yeah, thank you Senator for the question. Jill Chaka, deputy coordinator general disaster resilience and recovery. Um, as you note, uh, Senator, from the 7th of January, Victoria had really extreme heatwave and then catastrophic, uh, fire conditions, unfortunately, with numerous fires that broke out across that state from that time. Um, there has been a wide range of assistance provided and activated. Um, that takes a number of forms. It includes emergency relief assistance, personal and financial counseling, concessional loans for primary producers, cleanup activities, counter disaster operations, and restoration of essential public assets. So that goes particularly to things like roads and other public assets. Now those forms of assistance have been made available in 23 local government areas or LGA and then one alpine resort area. Um in addition to that, the Australian government has also agreed to equally uh share or cost share a range of measures um under the disaster recovery funding arrangements and that totals at the moment $134.6
million. And those additional um
support for primary producers, which obviously is critical uh to maintain livestock who who are still with those primary producers producers. Um to support community recovery officers being engaged in in affected areas and community recovery hubs being established and run. Um council support fund. So this this goes to funding directly for councils to support with cleanup and repairs to local public spaces like parks, footy ovals, etc. Um, importantly, primary producer grants. So grants of up to $75,000
to support primary producers with the
costs of cleanup and other costs enterprises. um a state coordinated cleanup program which uh was required to support um bushfire affected homeowners, businesses and community assets for cleanup case support to business owners uh to business owners I'm sorry um for support with case management to help them navigate supports that were available um the reconstruction of the
Hardcourt cool stores which was a key asset in that community for storage of um uh produce apples etc in that area. Um early recovery for public land and waterways. So this goes to rehabilitation and restoration efforts to support land management impacted by fires. Um prolonged power outage payments for businesses. Um onfarmm bushfire carcass disposal and finally recovery water tank rebates programs. Um in addition to that uh Senator there are um two Commonwealth only disaster payments which were activated and remain open in relation to disaster support. One of those is the Australian government disaster recovery payment as the minister referred to in her opening comments or AGDRP that's been activated in specific localities in 16 LGAAS. Uh well we're now we're now well over 60 specific localities that it's active in. and the disaster recovery allowance, which is an income support payment for people who've lost the ability to to work due to the disaster event. That's been activated in 23 LGAAS and one Alpine Resort as well. Thanks, Senator. [cough] >> Thank you for that uh comprehensive
response. I think there's a lot that goes into responding in emergencies that
people probably aren't aware of. Um and the needs of the communities are so diverse as well. Uh a quick question about the AGRP. Um and to use acronyms. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> Um but uh what what happens for members of the community who are still hoping to receive that that package uh in their to be announc hoping for that to be announced in their suburb. >> Yeah, absolutely. So as I mentioned um Senator, it is currently available in 66 localities in 16 LGAAS. But that figure um goes up regularly and I'll I'll walk you through the process to answer your question. Um it is the Minister for Emergency Management who's responsible for that payment. It's um legislated under the Social Security Act. Um it is a payment uh that is available for people who have been seriously injured because of the event or who have lost their homes or whose homes have been directly and seriously damaged because of the event or they're the immediate family members of someone who's missing or has passed away as a result of the event. >> [snorts] >> Um the process that we go through to activate or for the minister more accurately to activate AGDRP in a particular locality is first of all the minister has to make a determination the event is a major disaster. So clearly that's the case. Um she needs to determine that the event has had such a significant impact on individuals that additional Australian government assistance is required. So in other words, assistance that goes beyond what
required to support short-term recovery needs. She needs to have regard uh to the context of the community in forming a determination about the number of individuals who are affected. Um and in order to do that, we give the minister advice on impact. Um we rely on a range of sources of impact information to advise the minister so she can form a view on whether to activate. Sources of information that we rely on include rapid uh damage assessment data from the state where that's available. Uh there can be a lag with that because as you'll appreciate in an active fire zone
sometimes the state authorities themselves can't access that area for safety reasons for a time. Um, we also though rely on reports from councils of impacted homes. So councils can contact us directly with information they have about impacted homes if available and where we can validate it. Aerial imagery we will rely on as well and uh related to that photographic imagery if it can be geodidentified and timestamped so we have a sense of its veracity. Um, in the Vic fires event, we have turned around recommendations to the minister to activate AGDRP in specific localities within 24 hours of receiving council advice of impacted homes. We are
continuing to monitor all impacts continually. And so that's 66 localities currently activated. They've been activated in rolling progressive
couple of days. >> Thank you for that. Sounds like a very quick turnaround time. >> Yeah. >> Um,
final question from me and it's on Queensland. >> Uh, the state has been hit with a monsoon, a tropical cyclone, and other flooding events since December 24, and I note they're on high alert again. What support has NEMA been providing to the Queensland government and impacted communities? >> Yeah, thanks, Senator. Look, as you've noted, um really significant um number of events starting with flooding, adding the cycl former cyclone Cooji into that and then with continuation of severe weather, uh has had significant impacts for a number of locations in Queensland and that continues to the current time. Um we have um again worked with Queensland to activate the disaster recovery funding arrangements. Um they are um initially they were activated in relation to counter disaster operations um uh which go to helping local governments and state agencies to undertake activities that alleviate personal hardship and distress. Um also activated are costs associated with reconstruction of essential public assets. Those arrangements are activated currently in 46 local government areas which gives you obviously a sense of the scale of this event. Um, personal hardship assistance has also been activated in six LGAAS and a number of other defined localities in other LGAs. That includes things like funding for emergency hardship for people who've got essential needs for food, clothing,
emergency accommodation, etc. Um, concessional loans for primary
producers, freight subsidies are in place. Um, and similarly, um, concessional loans for small businesses are in place in 20 LGAAS. Um in addition to that, the Australian government has
agreed to cost share a number of um additional measures to the tune of $66.56 million to date. That includes an emergency fodder support package, again clearly needed urgently. Um it was activated quickly. Primary producer
grants for farmers. Um a uh specific piece of funding to support um the recovery and renewal of the Konari airport which is a key regional airirstrip for access and trans and transport of supplies in and out of the region. um an additional primary producer support package which went for additional holistic support including financial and human counseling, feral pest and locust management. Um additional small business recovery grants, a mental health recovery package
noting how critical mental health considerations are in the aftermath of disaster events, and finally a community relief fund for a council to support
extraordinary cleanup and make safe activities.
Thank you, Dr. Chuckets. Feel like I could ask you questions all morning about uh the response efforts. Um but certainly grateful for all the work that you're doing to support communities. Uh I'll rotate the call now and uh go to Senator McDonald. >> Thank you very much, Chair. And if I could just follow on uh from some of those responses that you're giving. Um so this is a reflection of my age and my eyes. Dr. Chaka >> Chaka thank you very much for supporting
>> Uh Dr. Chaka Clon Curry airport how much money was that um amount? >> Yep. I'll just get that for you Senator. It was uh $11.5 million. >> So that was just for repairs. It's not for the large amount that the Clon Curry Council's been asking for for the last 18 months. to upgrade the strip to allow for the heavier aircraft. Is that correct? >> For critical repairs to the damaged air strip and increase flood resilience. >> All right. So, uh just so that the minister knows this this community has been on the what was previously known as the BBRF grant round. Um they've done
all the work. They have provided uh quotes. They have incredibly shovel ready. They keep being told that every time they pro provide additional information that they go to the bottom of the queue. Again, there's something very strange happening with that. This would have prevented this money having been spent having to be spent if the
out. But uh it's not a matter for this agency. Um Dr. Char can I also ask you with the infrastructure betterment
monies that are spent uh is that what split is that with the state government? So um if I perhaps talk in general terms um when a state requests uh betterment support financially for um assistance with improving an essential public asset to be reconstructed or rebuilt to a stronger or more resilient version that is typically cost shared 50/50 with the Commonwealth and the state. >> Okay. Has that always been the case that it's been 50/50? That's the usual case. Uh there's been exceptions in the past, but that's the typical case, Senator. >> Okay. Thank you. >> If I may add, um Senator, and can I thank you for your advoc advocacy for your communities. Um >> there is also as a result of the disaster recovery funding arrangements. Um the change in the policy settings back in 2018 where states are able to retain efficiencies um from delivery of their normal road reconstruction um program as well. those those efficiencies are now being invested in betterment pro projects around Queensland and the funding split on those is potentially for the Commonwealth up to 75% of the program depending on the cost sharing arrangements for that category B so there's a slight nuance there but um certainly uh there are two streams of funding Senator sorry John >> terrific thank you um well if I could turn to you Mr. Moon and I am incredibly grateful for your uh leadership in this um the disaster responses particularly with your uh background in Queensland. It's something that you understand very well and uh I'm always heartened to know that you're on the job. I do want to consider though and I' I've got a bunch of questions that I'll put on notice around detail, but I want to consider in 2019 when we had those horrific floods in uh North Queensland and lost half a million head of livestock and the the mental health impact on that community had the potential to have been extraordinary. But the federal government at that point made um prioritized payments and structures that meant that that community not just survived, it got back on its feet and ran. Um I I think the bit that is sometimes lost um in discussions about disaster recovery is that these are the communities that may not be the the they may not look like the big dollar spinners but the cattle they produce go into all the jobs in the the last manufacturing industry of abattoires in Australia the butchers the export dollars the everything else and so that's why this disaster recovery money is so important. Um, and I want to know after the 2019 floods and that exceptional response, has there been any work done on measuring why that was so important and why it was it is of value to continue replicating that standard. So in terms of formal a formal evaluation of those particular programs, I'd have to take that on notice um
Senator, but certainly we have learned and not only at a Commonwealth level but also a state level um important lessons out of that particular event and the efficacy of a range of programs and and those indirect impacts that that impact other or or affect other industries and sort probably one of the key lessons u Minister McBain and I heard when we were on the ground just north of Julia Creek with a range of a range of grazuers and they were more focused on the impact that their loss their ability to trade
having lost much livestock and not being able to get to town on their roads was going to have on the town >> and the small businesses attached to the town and then by extension the schools >> medical those sorts of things and and and that's why certainly in the design of the program and the learnings from 2019. Obviously, there needed to be put in place a range of support mechanisms to support those businesses in town. And that was the disaster relief um uh the disaster recovery allowance for those people not uh directly uh impacted. But certainly we heard it loud and clear um from the grazers that we met in Richmond in Julia Creek itself and then north of Julia Creek around the importance and the value and the benefit and the confidence it gives the industry that their back is covered and and that they do have a path for recovery. And I've been tracking now I've I've been looking at the roll out of some of those $75,000 grants at the moment, Senator, and um on the surface it looks as though there hasn't been an enormous take up. But I think one of the important lessons we learned and certainly the conversation I had with Mayor Wharton yesterday is it's way too wet for farm for grazers to actually get out of their country, assess the damage and get a contractor out or do their own work there. So those lessons certainly have been learned. We've also broadened the eligibility for primary producers. Back in 2019, it was really very narrow and we had grazers who because of drought because of their own personal circumstances were running other businesses, trucking businesses, quarrying the whole range of issues there and they weren't eligible for the grants there. So as a result of the learning of uh of 2019 that eligibility has certainly been expanded. So there's a catch all there. And I think importantly and and I was um have been speaking to as has Dr. Chaka with Queensland in recent days and also local mayes and cattle Australia. There will be more requests for assistance in the pipeline and we will wait and consider them as we would usually do. >> Terrific. Well, thank you for that that update. Specifically, I want to turn to the $75,000 um category D payment. One of the things that happened in 2019 was that those payments were made proactively and allowed grazers to acquit them. That was an enormous mental health relief program and it meant that uh businesses like the helicopters and and others that were on the ground in that immediate disaster response were able to be paid. uh as well as just that headsp space of I will
get through this. We discovered that in communities that were affected by both like Winton discovered that we had reverted back from that proactive 75,000 payment back to you must acquit the $5,000 driving your truck in putting in invoices lodging it again. And that had caused enormous distress when people realized that the government was no longer going to support them in the same
way. I know that the government's increased that to $10,000 this time, but it is still a message that you're going to have to get on the computer and you're going to have to struggle through incredibly poor internet access and uh and and and do this tough at a time when people are like and and you know this, but if I can just paint a picture for everybody else in the room covered in sandfly bites. are glassy eyed with the distress of seeing the stock, whether it be your your children's horses, your much loved workh horses, and the thousands of head of stock that you've lost. And the idea that the bank debt remains, you know, these are very low margin businesses. $75,000 is not a lot of money to the government to ensure that that mental health package that the government's providing, which cannot be delivered because there's no mental health or very few mental health people in those regions, I just don't think we can put a a price on the value of doing the proactive $75,000 so that as the flood waters recede, as people walk out of the doors and confront again what has happened, to their um to their home, to their business, to their community, that they feel confident that they have a future. I I I don't think there's anything more that I can advocate more strongly for. I know you understand this, Mr. Moon. I understand that this is not the way government normally does business, but we have a precedent from 2019. It worked. It saved lives. It absolutely saved lives. And there are men and women who are still standing because of that. I think we can do that again. And I don't understand why the government has regressed back to this heavy paperwork compliance period which we've already heard uh this morning about the financial pressures that Nema is under. You know, the compliance of having to do the paperwork over and over and over for these people rather than do it once. you know just the efficiency of the department. So thank you for your patience chair that that is more my advice to you but I am begging I am begging minister that this must be
reverted to that payment because there will be lives lost and mental health impacts that are immeasurable and faceless and deep if we cannot get this right. And of course, $75,000 with CPI
is now worth 2/3 of what it was worth in 2019. So, it's actually less valuable than it was then. But just at least the message of that, and I've run out of time to talk to you about the restocking grants, but I would ask that you um turn your minds to those as well. >> Um, Senator, once again, thank you for your advocacy and the powerful um uh
picture you have painted for us. Um we have approached the Queensland government, the various agencies, the
department of primary industries or agriculture, whatever, whatever it is now. Um Queensland Reconstruction Authority, Q Rider who deliver the grants uh on the ground and also importantly um we had at that meeting cattle Australia to start to work
through um exactly what are the arrangements in place, what did we learn