Senate Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee, , 4:44:25 to 4:55:41
Discussion on the participation of returning women and children in Countering Violent Extremism (CVE) programs, including the role of state-level multi-agency panels and the National Support and Intervention Program.
Topics: National security, Social cohesion
Speakers: Brendan Dowling, Hon Jonathon Duniam, Alexander Goldie, Unknown Speaker
I'm just trying to figure out where we got to. I think we talked about charges and where those cases were at, but nothing further there. Um and so I wonder, is Mr. Dowling still around? Sorry. Um my question was going to be in relation to current arrangements related to members of uh that either of the cohorts uh and what arrangements have been put in place in partnership with Victorian and New South Wales State governments around monitoring or related.
Thanks, Senator. You're referring to the returning women and children. Sure. So I think um the first thing is to say that uh those who have returned home of their uh independent accord have done so by their own arrangements. There are plans put in place to ensure that on their return uh agencies across the relevant states and territories in the Commonwealth can conduct whatever interviews may be required at that time. Uh investigations can proceed. So uh there obviously I wouldn't comment on any operational details, but um there may be uh people who are considered within that cohort who remain subject to police investigation either by uh the AFP or New South Wales or Victoria through the joint counterterrorism teams. Uh those cohorts are also uh will be considered for countering violent extremism programs delivered through the National Support and Intervention Program. Um if that's the appropriate mechanism to look at their uh reintegration into the Australian uh community. There may be other services that are provided if there is further support which might go to health, welfare, employment services, uh, but those would be coordinated by the states and territories.
Uh just on the countering violent and extremism program, do we have an update on how many of those returning women and children have participated in that program?
So I believe all have been considered for inclusion in the program. I'll hesitate to say that today everyone is because there's a range of circumstances uh including relating to age of the person for other factors, which means that is fluid, but um they have all been engaged to one extent or another in relation to those programs.
Okay, so uh they have participated. So I know it's a voluntary thing. They are asked, would you like to participate and from what you say they have said yes, we would to some extent is what I'm interested in.
I believe I believe that's right that uh to varying degrees um all attorneys have engaged uh to an extent in those programs, but it is highly variable what the personal uh sort of remediation is in place. Um everyone is considered under state and territory arrangements through a panel as to what programs they're referred into the length of those programs, what services are appropriate. So it's it's it's highly variable what ends up actually being delivered.
Okay, so uh the request is made, a panel assesses what sort of engagement should occur. Is that right? Is the first step?
So most states and territories are and and this there's only two here.
That's right.
So this is applicable in relation to New South Wales and Victoria. For participation in a program funded under the National Support and Intervention Program. Those jurisdictions operate a multi-agency panel which will determine if the person and I'm talking in broad about any participant, not just these court cohorts at the moment. Um are those services appropriate for that person at that time. Uh the police will usually be involved in those conversations. So a considered decision is made as to what program uh is appropriate for that person, and if it is determined that uh service funded under the national support and intervention program is the right mechanism, then the engagement will happen with the participant to offer encourage uh the availability of those services.
So uh everyone has gone through that determination. Does that include the children in this?
So um some of the uh of the people who have returned uh some of some were as young as six years old. On return. I'm not across exactly what arrangements would be in place, but I I would suspect that a six-year-old wouldn't be considered under the CBE programs. It doesn't mean the state government isn't thinking about what is appropriate for that six-year-old, but it wouldn't be a countering violent extremist programme.
Some other arrangement.
That's right.
That's where they deal with directly. Okay. So I just don't want to labour this issue too much, but I'm just interested in, and you point out that to varying degrees. So some might have turned up to their first meeting with uh council or who knows, someone to assist them right through to some form of full participation. Is there any visibility you have of the extent of the engagement these individuals have had with the program?
So I will take on notice what we're able to tell you about the extent of engagement which will uh which will involve
number one did three sessions. I don't want that. I just would like to know. Which would be what the minimum has been and what the noting what you said about different circumstances that would be helpful. And have we got a measure of what success from these programs looks like?
So again, it is variable. Um through the course of a year, we have uh several hundred people participate in countering violent extremism programs. Dozens will enter or or many more than dozens will enter, dozens will exit. Um the aim of a countering violent extremism program is to have someone disengage from violent behaviours, violent tendencies, um, where those tendencies are associated with uh beliefs that um you know a perverted sense of of what is right and wrong, then uh the practitioner or the person delivering the support will engage with those belief systems. Ultimately what success looks like is that uh someone can exit the program with uh uh with a sense that they have disengaged from a tendency towards violence. That can take three months, it can take three years, it can involve a lot of service delivery, it can involve less um at the end of a violent extremism programme, it doesn't mean the end of engagement. Someone might be referred to a subsequent service. So there is no uh there's no graduation certificate, I guess, um tends to be a bit more fluid than that. But yeah, I think practitioners in the field, the people who are delivering the support service um do have a sense of uh what success looks like in terms of a participant having disengaged from those violent uh tendencies.
Okay, and does you or does the department receive updates on this given the community interest and the fact that it is administered under this joint arrangement? Do you receive updates on this on the way through?
We do. Uh we have a much more comprehensive data reporting uh portal that now operates in which uh states and territories and delivery agencies input data as to uh a person engaged in the program, what types of uh reasons have been referred into the program, as in what uh beliefs, extremist tendencies they might have, um, what programs are being provided to support them, and then when they exit from the program. So that is not a long-standing uh programme. I might ask Mr. Goldie to join me, um, but I believe we've had that um data portal in place for um the best part of months or a year now, um, which which over time will give us uh a far more comprehensive picture of what people's pathway through the programs is.
Thank you, Senator uh Alexander Goldie, Assistant Secretary of Countering Violent Extremism. So the ASIC system that Mr. Dowling is talking about uh commenced with the National Support and Intervention Programme. So it's been operating since one July 2025.
You might just clarify what our six stands more.
The Australian something in intervention support and intervention caseload system came to me eventually.
Yeah, but you can thank him later for that.
Yes. Thank you, boss. Um but it's an iterative process in what kind of data we collect in that system because we came from a much lower baseline with our former programs that the NSIP replaced. So we're always looking at what are useful indicators for us to inform our position as that national coordination and funding agency as opposed to kind of directing operational activity. Um, some of the things we're looking to drill down into over the next uh few months and years, uh some additional indicators on the impact of a of a program on somebody's individual mental health outcomes, um, their engagement with education and support services, so we can have a little bit more granularity around the individual impacts at a more national aggregated scale.