Senate Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee, , 2:35:12 to 2:47:56
Senators question the department on flexible working policies for senior executives following media reports on the 'pregnancy penalty' and specific staff cases.
Topics: Workplace culture, Public service staffing
Speakers: Stephanie Foster, Senator Fatima Payman, Charlotte Tressler, Unknown Speaker
Thank you, Chair. Good morning. Um I'd like to ask some questions of the Department uh regarding the recent ABC Four Corners episode, the pregnancy penalty. Um what is the Department's position on flexible working arrangements for SES employees?
So, Senator, we have a very strong um record in uh flexible working arrangements both for SES and for more general staff. So about 20% of our SES have a formal flexible working arrangement in place. Um and a significant number of SES also work flexibly on an ad hoc basis.
So 20% have flexible working arrangements. Do we have a number of what how many employees that comes to? That's about 45, Senator 45. Beautiful.
And more broadly around 60 percent of our staff have a flexible work arrangement formally in place.
Uh for what, sorry?
Um so if I look at the broader workforce, it's about 60 percent. Who have a flexible work arrangement in place?
And um, what policies are applicable to SES roles in particular?
So um obviously we start with the legal frameworks like the Fair Work Act, but then we have internal policies which Ms. Trislat can take us through. She's just reminding me, of course, that we reflect those in the determination that I make in the engagement of each employee. Which is under section 24 of the Public Service Act.
Yeah, so um so Senator, uh, we do have a specific determination that um prescribes the conditions for our SES, and that's a section 24 determination that includes our um uh flexible working arrangements.
Wonderful. Um how many SES roles are currently vacant, even if they're like temporarily filled?
So we have 12 vacant roles at the moment.
Um how many SES have taken parental leave in the past 12 months?
Sorry, Senator, I missed that one.
Uh, how many SES have taken parental leave in the last 12 months?
So in the last 12 months we've had um around uh eight um SES take um maternity or parental leave.
Um now with regards to Alicia Warner and her specific case, which formed part of the investigative or a report for for corners. Ms. Warner submitted a formal section 65 request. Um after that, was there any formal discussion with Ms. Warner before the request was denied?
So Senator, um this is challenging for us because although Ms. Warner has chosen to make public the facts of her um case. Um I'm not able to discuss the personal details of a staff member. Um so what I'm what I'll try to do is answer your questions by reference to what our practice is and assure you of what we have done consistently. So whenever a staff member makes a request for a flexible work arrangement, we have a discussion with them about whether or not we can accommodate the specific request that they've made. Um and if not, whether or not there are other arrangements uh which might be suitable. And so in no case would we receive a request and simply deny it.
So you've never done that. Receive a request and deny it.
Not to my knowledge, Senator.
Okay, because Ms. Warner's case is obviously made public and the answer to my question earlier about whether a formal discussion had taken place before the request was denied with Ms. Warner. Um the answer is no. But if you don't want to discuss that, um you've just said that there has been no other case where a request has been made and it's been denied without consultation.
So Senator, I didn't say no. I said it's difficult for me to answer without discussing personal details of a staff member. Um but uh I am not aware of any case, including Ms. Warner's, where we have denied a request without discussion.
So in the department. Statement it said the environment had changed post Bondi and therefore a need for sustained leadership presence. What specifically changed for the role given the threat level hasn't changed?
So Senator That again let me answer in the general but in a way which I hope will be helpful. We sometimes found ourselves in a position, as I said, where we're not able to respond to or to agree to a very specific request, but we will work with the person on what other arrangements might be possible. In terms of the change, we were not long after a very horrific terrorist attack. We had changed our arrangements internally in the department. And remain in that situation. If I can again speak generally, one of the concerns that we have in a situation like that is whether or not the particular flexible arrangement of compressed hours is able to be managed. And so when someone works compressed hours, it means that they do a standard number of hours spread across a smaller number of days. For example, a standard number of days spread across a certain number of hours spread across four days, not five. That means that we're essentially the salary that's attracted is the same for those four days of compressed hours, which means that where we would potentially normally, if someone were part-time for four days, be able to act someone in the role in the fifth day, so we had sustained leadership presence, that's not available to us without additional cost to the department to the taxpayer. And so compressed hours is a particular form that carries with it a number of characteristics that we need to manage. The other thing that we need to take into account with compressed hours is the fact that most SES do not work a standard number of hours, and so many SES are working in excess of those standard hours and therefore might often be working the same number of hours per day as the employee on compressed hours, but working five days instead of four. So I'm I'm sorry I'm getting quite technical here, but they're all the considerations that we take into account when we assess whether or not we can accommodate a specific request. But as I said at the outset, if the specific request isn't one which we can agree to, we will always work with the employee on alternatives.
Now the department statement cited environmental changes and sustained leadership presence as the reasons for denying flexible work, as you mentioned. These grounds aren't within the legislation though. So what were the grounds for denial under Section 65 of the Fair Work Act for flexible arrangement?
So Senator, um again, as Ms. Foster has said, we can't really speak to like we've got to be very careful in terms of talking about um the specific case. However, consistent with the fair work guidance, we did consider the reasonable business grounds that you would have seen in that guidance, cost capacity, practicality, um inefficiency or impact were all considered in making that assessment.
You mentioned that there is currently 12 vacant roles. Now, when the department denied Ms. Warner returning flexibly to her substantive role, why wasn't she placed in one of those vacant roles?
So Senator, that's a point in time that Ms. Tressler's just provided you. Um I'd also make the point that the department has a very wide range of functions and the there will be varying requirements for different roles across the department depending on the nature of the work.
So are we saying that there was no suitable vacant role available for Ms. Warner that she could have performed in?
So again, Senator, I can't speak to Ms. Warner's particular circumstances. Um what I can say is that we would make an assessment about whether or not any roles were appropriate to be filled in respect of the particular type of flexibility being sought and make an assessment on that basis.
Thank you. Um I've just got one last question in this um lot and then I'll come back. Um on the day of the release of the Four Corners episode on Monday 19th of October, Brendan Dowling and Sarah Ver held an all-staff meeting for the counter-terrorism coordination centre. What was that meeting about?
So, Senator, um, as I said at the start, we have a very strong record of flexibility and of supporting people with needs for flexible work in the department. Uh, whenever there is publicity, we make a point of finding a way of speaking to our staff about the department's position or policies. So normally I would use um, for example, I have a weekly um stand-up with all of my SES. If something has been running in the media, I'll normally take that opportunity to talk with them about what's in the media. Because of the potentially damaging impact on staff of a story which portrayed the department in a particular light. I wanted to speak with those staff, or I wanted their managers to speak with them to make sure that if they had concerns, they had a forum to raise them and to be clear about our broader approach to flexibility. I'm very conscious in answering all of these questions that in no way do I wish to diminish or appear to diminish Ms. Warner's experience. She was a valued member of our team, um, and I don't wish to leave any other impression than that.
Thank you, Ms. Foster. Um I don't think this was raised earlier, but is there a reason, a specific reason why we can't discuss Ms. Warner's case, even though she's come out publicly about it?
It's a privacy concern, Senator. Um so Ms. Warner has chosen to put some details in the public for me to put details she has chosen not to put into the public, I feel would breach my obligations to her privacy.
Thank you. Thank you, Chair.