Senate Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee, , 3:28:54 to 3:41:43
Senators question why Home Affairs has not requested access to OpenAI's 'Daybreak' cybersecurity program despite other agencies receiving credits, while officials emphasize the coordinating role of the ASD.
Topics: Artificial intelligence, National security
Speakers: Senator David Pocock, Hamish Hansford, Stephanie Foster, Unknown Speaker, Elissa Walker, Brooke Hartigan, Hon Murray Watt, Senator Jana Stewart
Excellent. I understand we've got one more block of questions from Senator David Pog.
Thank you, Chair. Um thanks for your time here this afternoon. Um I've got some questions about cybersecurity and access to frontier AI models. What access does home affairs have to so-called frontier models?
So, Senator, um, we will have all the experts here in outcome one to cover um cybersecurity, and whilst I understand you're asking specifically about home affairs, it's actually a policy question rather than a departmental question. And so we can, as soon as we go to outcome one, cover those issues.
Okay. Um I guess I asked because OpenAI have said that they've offered daybreak access to Services Australia, the VIC Department of Health, New South Wales Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research, New South Wales National Parks, Australia Institute of Health and Welfare. Um but didn't see home affairs on that list, and so Thought this was probably corporate. But happy to wait for the next the next section if it's can't be answered here.
Across the Commonwealth ASD is taking the lead on how departments are working with and using frontier AI models in terms of our own systems. So the question would probably also useful to be directed there.
Senator if any of the officers from Outcome One can assist, I'll invite them to join us. Otherwise, I'm I think we will be shortly moving to that outcome. And Chair, when there's a change of call, Ms. Hartigan wants to correct the record on something.
I'm happy for one, then yeah.
Right. Well, um do you want to take your opportunity to correct the record now before we move to the next action?
Yes. Yes, thank you, Chair. Uh, the question I answered before was how many internal reviews we have currently on hand. I I gave it there were seven internal reviews, and that is actually the figure that has been received in the period one July this year to 31 August. On hand in total, we have 82 internal reviews. Then there was a question about how many of those have not been complied with in the statutory time frame, assuming there's been no extensions of time, and that number is 73.
Thank you very much for clarifying the record. Uh that now concludes the questions we have in the cross portfolio area. Um so officials in this area are released with our thanks. Uh we will now move into outcome one. Do you mind if I go to David to finish the question? I might um hand the call back to Senator David Pocock.
Um Thank you. Obviously, in the wake of the the Medicare um hack and and what's been happening overseas uh with Hugging Face and other incidents. We now apparently need access to frontier models to protect ourselves from frontier models. And OpenAI has announced this daybreak program where they've giving Australia 10 million dollars worth of credits for daybreak. I'm interested what access the Department of Home Affairs has to daybreak.
Uh Hamish Ansved, head of national security. Um I think the point people have been making is that the Australian government, as Ms. Walker said, through the Australian Signal Strike Tred, is working with the Frontier AI companies to try and get access to the most contemporary intelligence and to understand how the models work and then apply those learnings both for government and for industry.
Yeah. So what access do we have to those models at the moment?
Well, I think um the Department of Home Affairs doesn't have access to the frontier AI models, but clearly the Director General of AST has said that they are working with the frontier model, so I think it's probably best directed to AST to give you the sense about access and application and use.
Has home affairs requested access to frontier models?
Um I don't believe so, Senator, but we can take that on notice if that's incorrect or if Ms. Walker has a different view. Because I think the basic premise, Senator, is that the Director General of ASD has said on the public record that they are working with the Frontier AI companies. That's the area of technical expertise in government that they're sharing with other agencies and departments.
And so you don't have you don't have access to OpenAI's daybreak cyber programme?
Um not in the Department of Home Affairs.
Why is that? I mean that they they told the um committee uh that Senator Duniam is the deputy chair of that they've given access to um services Australia. Surely home affairs should have access to daybreak.
Um I can't I think Senator we we are um securing our systems uh but uh not to my knowledge do we have access to daybreak.
And so who who have you have you contracted anyone to assist with cybersecurity in the department?
Senator will ask um Ms.
Are we contracting anyone to help with cybersecurity in Department of Home Affairs given the information that you would hold and given what we've seen with these agents?
Um within the tech group and uh in the home affairs, we do have um a number of uh contractors that uh support us in general with um cyber cybersecurity. Um we have established a frontier AI task force within the task group as a direct result of the change threats in the environment. Um and we are working um across the group to um strengthen and understand um the new threat.
Sure. Who who are those companies? Are any of them um sovereign Australian companies or are they all I would have to take that on notice? Okay. And has the Frontier AI task force requested access to daybreak? Maybe some notice if you can come back on that. I guess maybe on that one. Why haven't you accessed you asked for access to daybreak, given what we saw with um Medicare?
Um across the Commonwealth we're following the process led by ASD.
Okay, so you just wait for wait for ASD to do things and then um. Okay. Um I might get your take on all of this. We've got a uh a US company that's hacking government websites and their response is that they'll give us access and some credits for this uh daybreak um cyber security program to potentially protect ourselves from their own uh their company. Um surely as a five eyes member, supposedly the closest ally of the US. This is something that we could we should be demanding anyway. Like why why are we why are we treating these companies like sovereign nations? Has the government um accepted OpenAI's offer of access to daybreak?
Uh I'm not I I don't know personally. I'm not sure whether any of the officials could add anything there.
Does anyone know?
We're just trying to find out, Senator. As as um Ms. Walker said earlier, it's um Australian Signals Directorates that that is coordinating the engagement with the companies and the um priority of different government agencies for different technologies.
And so I mean that's not what that's not what OpenAI told the Senate committee. They said that um Service Australia, Victor Department of Health, New South Wales Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research, New South Wales National Parks, Oz Institute of Health and Welfare. Um have Daybreak access, supposedly the ones that they they hacked, and then they talk about ASD and VIC Department of Government Services who have it through the government trusted access for cyber programs. I'm just slightly concerned that home affairs isn't across this and and I guess working at speed to put things in place.
I hadn't quite understood the question. Um the agencies that have been provided that are the agencies that were impacted by the incident. Um so it goes to my point that ASD is working very closely with agencies on what um what appropriate response is, and in this instance it was those agencies who were impacted who needed access to that.
And Senator, I think the the other point to note at a policy level, um, a small number of agencies need access to frontier AI capability that can then be amplified throughout other agencies. Agencies for the vast majority of departments and agencies, commercial models are able to protect those agencies. And I think that's a separate issue to access to the funding of daybreak and where that might be provided. We have spoken at a policy level to open AI about both daybreak its fund and how that might be applied, as well as any support that companies like OpenAI and Anthropic might be able to provide Australian government agencies, and that that's an ongoing discussion that we're having, both for Australian government agencies but equally for law enforcement.
The only other point I'd add Senator Pocock and you've heard similar just now is that having an agency like ASD with its expertise undertaking and leading the effort for a rigorous assessment of these kind of models is a really important first step before any decision is made about greater involvement within government.
I guess the the background though is that the Medicare hack happened in June. We're now in October, and these models are being improved and released, it seems every every month or month or two. So there seems to me there's some urgency here. Just finally, in terms of the $10 million worth of credits, do you know how long that would last?
After hands for Senator, I don't.
Okay, thanks. I'll um put a few notice and can make those doing.