Senate Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee, , 1:46:10 to 1:56:43
Officials provide a breakdown of potential underpayments and overpayments totaling over $3 million and discuss the timeline for finalising remediation this financial year.
Topics: Workplace relations, Government spending
Speakers: Sanandan Dasgupta, Mr Pat Hetherington, Senator Susan McDonald, Hon Jenny McAllister, Senator David Pocock, Senator Jana Stewart
So what is the scale of it? What's the total overpayments, the total underpayments?
Have you got those series?
So uh this is uh as per so currently uh from a remediation perspective that work will happen once we move to the new payroll system. But uh as KPMG had sort of uh identified, it's not a uh I'll just open the question.
I think from memory it was something like 1.7 million potential overpayment and 1.6 million potential underpayment.
You can't net the orders of the so it is it is uh 1.86 million dollars, which is underpayment and 1.537 million dollars overpayment. This is a potential uh over and underpayment, it's not a remediation outcome because the the KPMG report basically mentioned you'll have to undertake a detailed analysis of the remediation remediation process looking at P rules for each employee.
So this is only uh a sort of it's a statistical, it's a statistical um estimation of overs and unders. It's not something that you can actually take action on an individual's pay profile.
So for 370,000 dollars KPMG basically said, yep, you have a problem.
They didn't actually say so uh from a KPNG perspective, they they highlighted the areas the where where there were differences sort of which were raising these overs and unders. As a result of that, we we have undertaken a number of steps to to remediate uh I wouldn't say to address the concerns as an example. First of all, we we started with uh enterprise entitlements position paper, which was circulated to the staff so that there was a common understanding of the employee entitlements. So that was the first thing which happened. Then as part of uh the cordamenta first payroll review, we now have a single HR query portal system, so which was uh launched in September. So as an example, if I go into the uh HR portal system, uh from 9th September till 22nd of October, we have received 138 queries. So this is a new uh progress which has been made. Out of the 138 queries, as at 22nd October, 134 queries have been resolved. Four remained in progress. Out of 138, 83 related to payroll matters, where it the questions were around payroll related enquiries related to processing of overtime payments, uh time off in lew, restriction allowance, higher duty updates, assistance in with timesheets. Out of that, only one matter related to potential underpayment issue, as it was a query about application of a meal allowance during overtime. Uh a further enquiry concerned uh a request for accrued toil to be paid out and was an entitlement administration matter rather than identified underpayment. So progress has been made. So we are addressing these queries. Further, we are also updating on a regular ongoing basis, uh, which is the monthly update. With the fieldwork ombudsman, how we are going every month it is being provided. Monthly updates to the CPSU, monthly updates to the old staff by the Chief People Officer. And the interim coordinator general and the Deputy Coordinator General EMR are having stand-ups with the CCTN NSR staff. So we are staff.
Do you mind tabling that KPMJ report, please?
We already have a question on notice. We've released the report in full tier.
Minister, can I get your take here? Senator's been asking questions for a long time on this. There's still 1.86 million underpayments, 1.53 million. Overpayments. How is this acceptable? Your government comes down really hard on the private sector. Clearly, our payroll system is incredibly complex. Like the award system has to be simplified. What does the government have to say when departments can't get it right? But we're cracking the whip with the with the private sector on underpayments, overpayments. Is this is this acceptable?
Senator, our government considers that paying employees correctly and on time should be a priority for all of our departments. We're supportive of the work that Mr. Hetherington and his team have been doing to remediate the issues that have been identified.
But wage theft is illegal in the private sector, but it seems like in the public sector a year later, a million bucks and consultants and people still haven't been paid what they were owed.
Our expectation is that people should receive the correct pay.
Is there a date at which people will have been paid for work that they've done?
Thank you. I will take this as the final question before I rotate the call.
Thanks, sir.
I'll ask Mr. Hetherington to update on the point at which we expect this to conclude.
So we we expect this to be finalised within this financial year. You'll see that we've accounted for this in our financial statements. We've declared it as an issue, we've created a provision to make good payments for staff in this financial year. That's that's available in our annual report. I would say all of this effort to your point, Senator, all of the effort that we've described and the expenditure that we've described is in order to make sure that we are compliant with the law. I take that very seriously as the accountable authority. This is a matter for the agency to resolve. Minister McBain has made it very, very clear to me that she expects this issue to be resolved as quickly as is humanly possible. But I make the point that it is complex, that I need to get it right. If I rush and we don't get this thing done properly, and we don't set it up for the future, we will find ourselves with pay issues on an ongoing basis. And we've been absolutely transparent with the staff. We've been transparent with this committee. We've been transparent with the Fair Work Ombudsman. I have been transparent with this committee. Sure. And we will be can continue to be transparent with all of the stakeholders in this until we get it right.
Thank you, Senator Pocock. Senator McDonald.
Just reflecting on the the line of questioning from Senator Pocock, and it strikes me that if NEMA was held to the same standards that disaster recovery, disaster relief Australia was, then the government would withhold funding to your organisation until they were satisfied that you were not breaching the law and you were paying employees properly. Who's held accountable for uh to the same standards that we hold small businesses and other government contractors to when their payments are withheld? Will you just continue being paid?
I don't I don't agree that the two things are comparable. We're not talking about a case of fraud or corruption in in respect of payroll. I appreciate I appreciate that it is an issue that we need to resolve and that we are currently not compliant with the Fair Work Act in that regard, and we are working to resolve that, but we are not talking about um we're not talking about allegations of fraud uh which were received in respect of DRA.
Uh well, I think millions of Australians who are frustrated by government waste would disagree with you and ask why there will be no boots on the ground at the next flooding event in pick a place in Australia, far north Queensland. Um but the NEMA staff will continue to be paid despite you know not holding themselves to the same standards that we hold other organisations to.
Senator I. I realise it was a throwaway line, but I don't want to leave that unattended. Our government is absolutely committed to being a good partner to Queensland and to all of the other states and territories that we work with to respond to disasters when they arise. Our government has made substantial investments to uplift our national capability so that we can do that. Uh and I wouldn't want your remark to be interpreted as there being a lack of support during the higher risk weather season. In fact, you've heard this morning about the steps that have been taken. Working with our government partners and our private sector partners to prepare for exactly those scenarios that we know, and regrettably that we can expect to increase in frequency and intensity in the coming decades.
And Minister, your statement is is comforting, but I fear that the thousands of boots on the ground that were provided by DRA are now not being filled. I've asked questions on notice about the emergency stockpile. Um but I I fear that we have lost capability that is not been replaced, and unfortunately, um who is right will be proven out by the next disaster, and whether or not people turn up to do the work that we know was done so capably by disaster relief Australia.
Senator Gavin now continues to invest in ensuring that we do have the resources that are necessary to support communities. And it's a very different approach to the approach that was taken by the previous government. Obviously, resources were rejected, including during a very significant fire season.