Senate Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee, , 48:12 to 56:13
Senators question the $132 million investment figure for the Oz Alert system, debating commercial-in-confidence restrictions on disaggregated cost data and future sustainment funding.
Topics: Government spending, Public safety
Speakers: Senator Fatima Payman, Mr Pat Hetherington, Sanandan Dasgupta, Hon Jenny McAllister, Unknown Speaker, Senator Jana Stewart
Thank you, Chang. Good morning. Um my line of questioning is referring to um my question on notice uh at last estimates in May, um, where I asked about the cost of the creation of the Oz Alert system, which NEMA responded to by saying the total expense of delivering Oz Alert is not for publication due to it being commercial in confidence. Now I refer to Minister McBain's press conference of um on the 26th of February of this year, where uh and I've got a transcript of it which is available on the home affairs website. Um Minister McBain says during the press conference that to date the government has invested 132 million dollars to build and test the system. Has Minister McBain breached uh an understanding that the cost of Ozula is commercial and confidence?
No, I don't I don't believe so at all, Senator. I think she has mentioned an investment of around 132 million dollars. And I don't think that includes all the costs associated with sustainment. We can walk through some of those things. You see, in in our budget papers, we've got not for publication. There are there remain commercial sensitivities with the telecommunications providers that we're engaging with.
Um I understand, sorry, but that question I put on notice was quite clear. Um are we saying that this information isn't commercial and confidence?
I might try to to Mr. Daskopta to walk through the costs around Osalo and what we have published and what we have not published, and hopefully provide that clarity for you, Senator.
Uh thanks, Senator. So uh it it is um investment of uh 132 million dollars, like an overall figure because it includes expenses. From multiple agencies like Department of Infrastructure was managing the CBC contracts, NEMA was managing the CBE contracts, initials expenses started with home affairs before the establishment of EMA. And number of these CBC contracts with telco providers are commercial in confidence because of their sensitivities. That's why you know they are not on our standard. So hence uh it was mentioned because none of the budget papers mentioned the the uh uh OS alert uh uh uh budget measures like the details financial details, but overall was so it cost less than 132 million,
but you're not willing to tell me how much it actually cost.
No, I think I think I think what it's saying is that the overall investment is about 132 million dollars. Once you start to disaggregate that number, though, down by agency, so people will know that we are managing the contracts for a particular component of Oz Alert, if you start to disaggregate the 132 down, then it becomes evident how much we're spending on certain elements of it, and that's where the commercial sensitivity arises. So you have to that so the quoted figure, Senator, of 132 million that you've you've seen in the Minister's um media statement is is accurate.
So what's the latest estimate of expenditure on Oz Alert now that we know the Minister has publicly mentioned that you know it the investment was 132 million dollars?
Do you have that here? Have you got that number?
Uh Senator, I would still go with at the moment 132 million dollars investment figure, estimated investment figure, because again, you know, the the voice module which was announced is again commercial in confidence at the moment. So I would still go ahead uh with the 132 million dollars investment figure.
So you I just don't understand why you wouldn't share how much it's cost. I mean, I'm not asking you to tell me who applied for the tenders and what who was involved in this. It's just how much was the expenditure. But clearly uh it seems like you know you won't tell us the actual cost uh for this amount. Um it's not really helpful when we're here in budget estimates, supplementary budget estimates trying to figure out how much this cost um is there is there a figure that you can provide that's not the 132 million dollars because it's very vague and I I don't
know how uh Senator, I think it's quite normal, as you know, for uh government to withhold expenditure estimates where we're about to enter into a negotiation because, amongst other things, providing the estimate of expenditure gives a potential vendor an indication of how much you're willing to pay. That's in essence that's um one of the reasons why such information would be withheld. Um you have um asked for more information. I think we can take it on notice and examine what additional information could be appropriately provided that didn't trip over some of the commercial inconvenience issues. Um I'm reluctant to do it on the run at the table, but I think we can have a look at it and see what's possible.
Thank you, Minister. And and just a point of clarification. If the 132 million dollar figure was made public in Feb, why wasn't it included in the question on notice that I put to you guys in May?
Uh Senator uh that was the investment, estimated investment. However, as you know that the bill was still not complete, like we are still going through the the voice module. So that's why, you know, because if we start sort of you know adding the figures, then it again commercial sensitivity is a locker. So we will take it on notice and then we will provide.
Thank you. I mean, I think you can appreciate that it's a bit of an unhelpful answer when I receive that as a question on notice answer that it's commercial and confidence, but then the Ministers already made um stated a figure.
Um Payment, is this BE26095?
Yeah, yeah, that's the correct one. Thank you. And it was question four to be exact. What was the total expense of creating the system? Um but thank you for taking that on notice. Um on notice, can you also please identify all contract notice IDs relevant to the delivery of Oz Alert? Um as per NEMA's website in uh it's quoted uh in 2026-27 budget, the Australian government announced funding over three years from 2026 to 2027 to sustain the Oz Alert system. What's the value of this funding for each funding year?
Yeah, again, you see in our budget papers that that's not for publication, and that's what I was referring to at the outset of the question was that there are ongoing sustainment costs associated with the system that are still commercially sensitive. And so the extent to which that they're in the public domain that um hampers our ability to work with the telecommunication providers in a in a commercial way. And I suppose that's we will come back on notice with more detail. Um the investment of 132 million um is right at a point in time. There's more to come, is probably is probably part of the answer. So we're still working through uh a voice module, etc. So I appreciate that when these responses have been given, um, they are point in time.
Great. Thank you. Thank you, Chair.
Thank you, Senator Homan. Senator McDonald.