Senate Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee, , 5:25:07 to 5:36:28
The committee examines negotiations with the United States regarding the Enhanced Border Security Partnership (EBSP), focusing on the validation of biometric data, criminal history, and passport information for visa waivers.
Topics: Privacy, National security
Speakers: Senator David Shoebridge, Hamish Hansford, Ciara Spencer, Stephanie Foster, Unknown Speaker
Ansford. Um I'll try and be plain in my question. In the negotiations and the discussions between yourself in the United States in August and Ms. Spencer's team member and the United States in October. What personal information has the US said that they want to be provided under the EVSP for visa waivers? What personal information?
So I think I think Senator Name and passport number um is the key area that we are discussing with the US for their requirement.
And that that wouldn't have taken three days. If they'd said we want name and passport number, you would have said that's fine. That's that's the first 15 minutes.
Well, that the way to get to that information, they actually want validation of the name and passport number that an individual has provided on the visa waiver programme. How you check that with Australia is the subject to the discussion, including what technical system you might be able to deploy for that. And the same same thing for criminal history. Has the person who has put no on the form or yes? Um do they actually have a criminal history? Um and that's that's what we're negotiating. They're the two bits of the Mr.
No, no, you see, Mr. Hansbit, you've jumped straight to the outcome. I asked you a quite different question. What personal information are they seeking under the EBSP? Now I don't know how I can say this more plainly. I can give you a list. The EU has a list of personal information. I can repeat that to you again if you want. If that would assist, would that assist?
No, it wouldn't, Anna.
Well so can you address my question? Rather than the one you wished I'd asked.
Name and passport number and the fact of a criminal history or not. That's the two areas. How we get to the second one is the subject to discussion of discussion.
Well, no, but you said that they want the name. But then they want they've they want to be able to validate, is my understanding, that the name is actually that the person who arrives will match the name.
That's right. So the personal information that an individual has provided in the visa waiver programme, including name and passport number, they wish to validate that with the Australian government to make sure that the name and the passport number match equally, the same thing for criminal history.
But I am quite certain that the US is not proposing that an individual just simply put their name and passport number and an assertion about a criminal history. I've filled in these. I've felt now, Senator. I've filled in these forms, and my understanding is that they that the United States. Sorry, I I've seen the negotiations and the outcomes of the negotiations in Europe. And there's a raft of personal information that is also being provided. And there's provisions about how when the personal information is of a particular nature, that there'll be addition protections in them. Now are you saying that the United States has not asked for specific information? They haven't asked for biometrics. Have they or have they not asked for biometrics?
Senator, if I may, as I said previously, they're seeking assurance of the information provided. So exactly to your point, the information that an Australian traveller puts in their application for a visa waiver. The US are seeking assurance of that information.
And for that purpose. So I'm just could you please answer my question?
Sorry.
Has the US asked for biometric information? In their meeting with Australian officials in either August or October. Have they asked for biometric information?
They are open to how we provide that assurance, and that is part of the discussion we're having as to whether we provide biometric information or we provide, as Mr. Hansford had said, a yes or no. That that information is correct. So that is the crux of what we are discussing with the US at the moment.
So one of the options they're seeking is the direct provision of biometric information. That's right. Alright. That took a long time, you know, to get there. It took it took an unnaturally long time to get there.
So Senator, in um Ms. Spencer's defence. In response to the first question, she did try to indicate that they wanted to validate the biometric information and there were different ways of being able to achieve that.
I I sat through it, Ms. Foster. You don't need to You really don't need to remind me of the answers that were given. Um, but if there's any other clarification that you want to give about what specific kinds of information the US has been seeking in these meetings in August and October, and you're aware of that, please do tell me now.
Senator, I was just indicating that I believe Ms. Spencer had given you consistent answers.
Are you aware, Ms. Foster, of any specific categories of information the US has been seeking?
No, Senator.
All right. Thank you. So biometric information is one of the categories that's on the table. Um what about uh political opinion? Have that has that been raised at any point in the discussions in either August or October by the United States?
As Mr. Hansford said, the focus of our discussions has been on biometric data and criminal history.
Yeah, but you see, I wasn't asking you about the focus. I was asking you uh a different question. And if you just answer the question, that would be that would just be the quickest way through this. So no at any point in the discussions in August or October, or at any time outside of that. Has the US raised the question of information in relation to people's political opinions?
No, the requests have been on biometrics and criminal history.
All right. Has there been any discussion about uh genetic data?
Not to my knowledge.
Hansford?
Uh no. Um I think there's two distinctions. It's a matter for the US what they ask of people for the visa waiver programme. What we have been talking about is how the Australian government could verify some of the information from the US and the answer then to the question about genetics is no, the Australian government has not been asked to verify genetics or religion or political views of individuals.
Well, you see, I I could I could do I could go through that list, but it might be easier if you just tell us that one of I assume that they would want the validation of the passport number? Am I correct in that?
Yes.
I'm assuming they would want validation of the name?
Yes.
Have they asked for documents to help validate the name? Now that could be driver's license, that could be birth certificates. Um have they asked for documents to validate the name? Or put forward a proposition that documents could be provided to validate the name?
Uh not to my knowledge. I think what the US have asked for is the passport and name that is on a visa waiver programme, does that then correspondingly, is that held in the passport database by Australia? And is it a is it the match?
Does the name match the passport number and the identity document?
That's right, Senator. That's my understanding.
Well, they've also asked if you I assume if the if the biometric material that is likely to be provided. Well, sorry, I'll start again. Are they, is it your understanding that for the EBSP for the visa waiver, individuals will, when they when they make the application to the United States be required to provide biometric data as part of the initial application?
I'm not aware of the current settings, I expect, and I understand the request to the EU has been for fingerprint data.
Um I'm not asking about the current settings. I'm asking about you're having negotiations about where what this arrangement will look like. Um I'm asking about that. Has the US said? I mean you must know this. Because if you're validating biometric data, which is what I understood, Mr. Hansford, you was you were suggesting validating biometric data, is that correct?
That's right.
So I'm sorry, just so if you're validating biometric data, they must already have biometric data. Because you can't validate something that isn't there.
No, no, I think they're asking us to validate whether or not the name and passport number provided.
Whether you have biometric data that connects to that person.
And is that is the Well, we we haven't been asked to validate the photo. We've been asked to validate the name and the passport number. They do provide their own image in the visa waiver programme application or the ESTA application.
Ms. Annisford, um Ms. Hansford, just so as I can understand you I wasn't in these negotiations. You were for three days in August, and then you've had the benefit, I assume, of a briefing of further negotiations in October. Is what the US is seeking to get, that when the person turns up in the US with their visa, their EPSB, that they go through biometrics, and you've given sufficient information to them that they can attach those biometrics to a name? Is that what's intended?
Uh no, Senator. What is intended is that the name and the passport that number that are on the application that the individual has put there has been independently validated with the Australian government? And so the US can have confidence that the name and passport number match and then they go through their own process of uh collecting biometrics both through the form and at the border. One way to get there is potentially providing the biometrics, but that is the subject to the discussions at the moment they have asked for the name and passport number to be verified as I understand.
What how does the biometrics? If the US doesn't have the biometrics, how does the biometrics assist you in matching the name and the passport number, which I assume sit in a database with name and passport number attached to them? So can you explain to me what you understand the purpose of the biometric information that is one of the options the US is seeking? What are they intending for? How does it work through the process?
Well, all I can say, Senator, is that's what we're talking about with the US. I can't really add any more information.