Senate Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee, , 8:29:32 to 8:54:20
Senators question the lack of granular data on total animal deaths and the effectiveness of remote monitoring at locations like Macquarie Island during the H5 outbreak.
Topics: Biosecurity, Animal welfare
Speakers: Dr Beth Cookson, Senator David Pocock, Justine Saunders, Senator Vanessa Bleyer, Miss Victoria Anderson, Hon Malarndirri McCarthy, Senator Glenn Sterle, Senator Paul Scarr, Senator Ross Cadell
>> Excellent. Uh as I understand it on notice you've said the current policy is to eradicate H5 in poultry without vaccination. Is >> I further understand that the vaccination policy is under review in conjunction with the states and territories. Is that correct?
>> Uh with the states and territories and industry. >> Um we we are can I'll just clarify that
>> wrap it up.
>> The the policy itself is to eradicate with the out the use of vaccination. um globally due to the sustained impacts of H5 in the poultry industries um the attitudes towards vaccination and the practices are changing and we're very um aware and monitoring those. So what we're doing is developing the policy frameworks that we would apply if we make a a decision um to apply vaccination in the future. So the intent is not to decide whether we vaccinate now or not. It's to make sure that if we need to move to vaccination that we uh know how we're going to do it. um because there's quite a number of complexities associated with that decision. Um and that work's been undertaken um with jointly with the states and territories and also the peak industry bodies.
>> Okay, just one last question. Um I'll put some other questions on notice, but this question is being asked of us as elected officials. So, um I'm I'm going to ask you, uh is rain water collected from roofs safe to drink in remote communities when there's a significant outbreak? And what advice has any advice been issued? Um and by whom? Uh we're working
very closely with the Australian Center for Disease Control um the the public health agency um who would advise on the risk to public health. Um so I will take that on notice. I guess what I would say is that um the rainwater contamination has not been raised as um a high high risk of exposure for humans. Most of the exposures that we're aware of globally have occurred through close contact with um sick um or dead um poultry, so chickens and ducks and the like. Um but I will um I think take that on notice so that we can consult with the CDC
>> if you could. Thank you. Thanks, Chair.
>> Thanks, Senator Scarr. Senator Blair.
>> Thank you, Chair. uh you answered some questions that my friend Senator Scarr asked you um which involved you talking about events and I understand that you defined an event as one or more non-human animals but you didn't quantify how many nonhuman animals an event involved when it is more than one did I understand that definition correctly
>> yes an in an event may invol may involve one or more animals.
>> And I did miss your answer when it came to Tasmania. How many events have do you have recorded in Tasmania?
>> Um, as the 53 >> 26th of October 53. Thank you, Senator.
>> And where in Tasmania were each of those events?
>> Um, I don't have that information on me. If birdflu.goav.au has the national map. Um so what we are doing is um as regularly as the as the data is reporting reported which is mostly occurring daily um the national bird flu um map the national dashboard is being updated. So all of the LGAs um that have had um events recorded will be shown on that map.
>> And so all of those 53 events will be on that map.
>> Yes. Correct.
>> And does that map also tell us how many nonhuman animals are involved in each of >> And where is that information?
>> Um, the purpose of the national dash board is to provide public information about where the locations of bird flu is occurring. um the jurisdictions um so the states and territories who are responding um are collecting um data that includes the um events and and our interest is making sure that what we report nationally is able to be reliably validated and standardized. Um the number of animals involved in event can evolve over time. Um so it's um so for example if a um if there's a number of sickle dead birds reported on one day and the investigation takes um place on that day um that doesn't mean that the event stops there. There may actually be more impacted animals. >> Um the it's not being collected um by us. We get some initial um data about what's observed at the time that the investigation was undertaken. Um I am aware of the interest in understanding the impact over time. We are having this conversation at the moment um about um what the future data needs are so that we can understand what the um conservation impacts are over time. Um and there's some good examples of what's been done um overseas. Um we are drawing on the expertise of environmental um and biodiversity colleagues uh to to do that to inform um how that uh information may be collected or the approach to that um in the future.
>> And where's the data of the observations that is fed to you?
>> Um we would have the information that's provided to us but as I said it's not indicative it's not necessarily indicative of the total numbers of animals impacted. um has been collected in different ways and reported in different ways by the jurisdiction. So um we're not publishing that as part of
record, I I formally put on notice a request um for that data. So how many native birds and native mammals are estimated to have died in total in Australian territory? Do you have a number on that?
>> Uh no, Senator, I don't have that
information. And when you referred to events and then referred to individual Australian territories at which those events have occurred, uh, did you include islands? I not sure if you only referred to one Commonwealth territory. Islands like Mcquary Island, for example. Were they included in that's your answer?
>> Uh, that yes, that's reported in the Tasmanian data. McCori Island um is um associated with an LGA within Tasmania. So the data is reported under that LGA.
>> Thank you. And you were talking about events and what about mass mortality events? Did you include mass mortality events when you were talking to Senator Scarr about events?
>> Uh yes. So a event that um is a mass mortality either at the time of observation or becomes a mass mortality over time after the investigation has taken place would be included in that.
>> And what's the definition of a mass mortality event?
>> Um Senator, there is no singular definition of a mass mortality event. Um it's an indicator that we use um to to help to determine priority for investigations to take place. Um and um previously we've used it as an indicator as to um um prioritizing for example high pathogenicity aan influenza investigations. Um so it's very much about um time scale um species impacted and location. So it'll be a judgment um by those that are responding in terms of whether for that population in that location whether it's exceeded a you know a threshold that could meet the definition of mass mortality.
>> And with all staff having been removed from Mcquaryy Island, how will you monitor the events and the impact of those events at Mcquaryy Island?
Um, Senator, the decision to remove the expeditioners um would have to be referred to the um DQ and the Australian Antarctic um program. They have put in place um live stream monitoring devices um so that there is an ability to um observe the population um through that
mechanism. So the only way that we are monitoring H5 bird flu at Mcquary Island is through live stream monitoring. Is that right?
>> Um well for um this current period um without um people being present. Yes. Um that would be true for many um islands or other locations that are not under current observation or constant observation.
>> Just to be clear that that is a they were DQ staff not not DAFF just
>> okay. So um what data do you have about the nature of the live stream monitoring? For example, how many devices, where have they been installed, how often are they checked, where's that information? Do you have access to any information?
>> I I don't have that information. Um what I can say is at the point of um departure, we were advised that there were no um obvious um mortality or um morbidity events occurring. Um but that information is held with um the Australian Antarctic program and the Department of Environment.
>> Thank you. Now um I just have uh some other questions on an unrelated topic, but I just wanted to check if any of my colleagues have any more bird flu questions. Have you got bird flu
questions? >> Go. All right. Thanks. >> Yeah.
>> Collegiality.
>> This is fantastic.
>> Oh, thank you. Surely this is normal.
>> Absolutely. Oh, those days went. >> Those days left.
>> How long until I become damaged?
>> 7:30.
>> I thought maybe tomorrow. >> 45 [laughter] maybe.
>> Senator Pop. Grab it while you can and we'll come back to you.
>> Questions from colleague Senator Sky and these dollar figures seem strikingly small for such a huge continent with so much at stake. Are you confident that enough is being spent on bird flu?
>> Absolutely, Senator. Um, we are very well prepared and we have a very comprehensive surveillance program. Um, and it's actually a conversation Dr. Cooks and I have had in terms of because to be honest, we're all prepared for the worst case scenario and you know from the modeling we're doing and the international experience we had expected it would be worse than it has been and we've been to be frank pleasantly surprised that it hasn't. >> Um, and and Dr. Cook can talk more technically about some of the theories about why this is so um New Zealand's in the same position as you might know very few numbers of detections and they thought during the spring they would see more but there is something about the very the fact that we do have such a vast landscape is certainly benefiting us in this in this circumstances but Dr. cooks and sort of got some broader views.
I'm happy to maybe get that on on notice because I've got quite a bit of one to try and dig into. Um you also told Senator Scarr that there were no outstanding requests for funding from states or territories. Did I understand that correctly?
>> That's correct, Senator.
>> Green, okay, that must be unusual. Um are you confident the states are doing enough to uh effectively respond to this?
Certainly the discussions I have at a strategic level through the national biocurity committee um very reassured by the commitment by jurisdictions to their response. Absolutely. Um and then I
wanted to ask about the this confirmed events. I'm I'm very concerned that you don't have the data on the numbers of birds and mammals that are dying. And it seems to me that just reporting an event doesn't really give us a handle on what's happening on the ground. You know, one crested turn dying compared to potentially hundreds of penguins. Those are two very different events. And yet all we know is there's 723 confirmed events, 53 in in Tazzy. Um why why don't we have that data yet? Surely that is critical to understand the extent of bird flu in
>> Our focus has been on actually monitoring the trends. So looking at what are the national implications and how and certainly from an agriculture perspective being very conscious on watching the movements of of this virus um so that we can ensure that we are adequately prepared for any potential spillover in industry. So that's a key priority and that and the data assists us in that regards in terms of managing and monitoring that risk and jurisdictions and Dr. cooks and probably talk further, but a lot of the data you're referring to is held by jurisdictions. We just don't capture it on the national dashboard, but the extent and I think there's some variation in terms of what's recorded state by state, but certainly the more granular information is held at that level.
>> How is the extent not linked to the number of birds or mammals that are dying in an event? You know, again, you could have thousands of birds found dead and on your database, it's one event.
Dr. did you want to comment on that?
>> Yeah. Um, I mean, as as I've said previously, the the national dashboard is a public information tool. Um, it's there to inform the public about where um, H5 bird flu has been detected and indeed where it has not. Um I mean I think it's really important to put into perspective that um of the um investigations that are occurring every day across the country, there's now been more than 4,915 negative investigations over the time. So one of the um the considerations is how do you reliably determine what's died from H5 um what's died from another cause? We've always had underlying mortality in our wildlife across um Australia and we certainly can't assume that every dead animal has died from H5. On saying that, we do really acknowledge um the um concerns around um impact evaluations and that that is going to be important for um long-term population monitoring. Um it is a cross- sectoral response. So whilst we deal with the biocurity side of it, we're working very closely with our colleagues in environment departments um and also um um engage regularly with non-government organizations involved in biodiversity and conservation. So we are taking advice from them on what the needs are. Um we are working um still on what um reporting will be required into the future and we've certainly um had some initial discussions about what impact monitoring can um be done. Um some of the jurisdictions have indicated that that they're already doing some things there. There will be sites there will be species that are have been under um population monitoring. So it's it's about building on those existing mechanisms to make sure that the data is available over time um to understand what the resilience needs are of some of those wild populations. But a lot of that um information and advice is coming through environment and conservation departments.
>> And Dr. when when will we have that data? Because on the basis of what you've just said, um, as senators, we could be looking at this information and we could think 723 birds have died, but it could be 723 million birds. >> How is it acceptable that you don't have that information? Do like, do you have that information and you're not publishing or you just simply don't have the data to make that?
>> I don't have that information, Senator. As I explained,
>> you requested it from states and
I don't think we can expect that every animal in this country that dies from H5 um is going to be observed um and reported and calculated. So the advice
that we're getting from >> then what's the point of the 723? So the
the 723 is to explain um at the national level where the locations that H5 has
been detected and where it's not >> a dead bird or mammal
>> one or more
>> one or more
>> they surely are estimating like these are people who love their work. They are uh really concerned about what's happening. You can't tell me that there's not at least an estimate of okay well there's 100 crested turns or there's 100 fairy penguins. It's not just oh there's lots that's just one like someone has this data why why haven't you even requested it from the states and territories
>> so I think that we would need a purpose to do that senator and I think the point we that misses was trying to make earlier is there may well be all of a lot more data held at state and territory level but from a national perspective we're looking at how we guide the response where the risks are to industry to further to further spread of the disease. So I I appreciate there's a lot of interest in individual data, but for us what we need to see as as Miss Saunders has said is is the trends, what risk we're needing to manage, working with states and territories for that. We are looking at this outbreak as a whole. Population level data is not something that helps the Department of Agriculture right now to understand the dynamics of this of this disease outbreak. So um and we really have to prioritize that to be honest like that is our job is to is to understand how this disease is moving through populations and to prepare for what might be coming next. So again, I I sort of appreciate that it it may be of interest to a range of other stakeholders and it is of interest to us, but in the context of managing a national disease outbreak, we really have to be careful about where we focus our effort and counting birds to be honest is not is not really going to help us manage the disease outbreak at
this point. And so I deced to doing separate data collection then because they need to know how many birds are
>> That's a good point S in regards to conservation and the impact on our wildlife and certainly that's I Dr. Cookson just referenced earlier conversations we're having with those stakeholders to to determine what data do they need and can it be sourced to better inform strategies from an environment perspective in the
>> but are you not leading the the the H5?
>> We are coordinating that response but we're working in partnership with environment. We certainly haven't taken over responsibility for environments.
>> So does DQ have those numbers?
>> I couldn't speak on
>> if you don't if you don't have them and you're coordinating how's DQ meant to know if all of a sudden a species is on the brink.
>> I think there's a couple couple of I'll make into one is as Dr. Cookson indicated one is there will be there'll be recording taken records records made at to different standards at local levels a state level around the country recording the death of wildlife I'm sure um different different records are being kept for different purposes what we aren't recording is deaths particularly related to H5 for the reasons Dr. considered because we're not testing every animal that dies. Um but certainly I know that environment and I can't speak on behalf but they work with their state counterparts in understanding environmental risks and work together in terms of managing those risks. So those questions really need to be directed there.
>> And just on the counting bit, one of the concerns that's been raised with me by people on the ground is around this mass mortality event. Um, we know in Australia we're really bad at environmental funding, environmental monitoring. We have some of the most amazing scientists, but we have just haven't put sustained effort. And so we're essentially sort of data deficient for a whole range of these species. And so I'm hearing from people who saying we're having hundreds of birds die and are being told, well, we've got no baseline data on that population, so it's not a mass mortality event. How confident are you that you're being informed when there is a mass mortality event or do mass mortality events not really matter and you just want to know the confirmed events?
>> Um as we've indicated central my position hasn't changed. We we are interested in trends as it relates to this disease and its movement around the country so that we can manage those risks particularly as it relates to spillover into agriculture. Certainly that's our department's role. Um yes, we have a broader coordination arrangement as it relates to the impacts of H5 with wildlife and really that's really ensuring that we and we took on that leadership role because we have the governance arrangements, we have the operational capability to to support environment in it efforts in terms of managing those risks as it relates to environment but they still have primary leadership and responsibility for working with states and territories on the environmental impacts.
>> Okay. Maybe just finally, what what does success look like in combat combating bird flu in Australia?
>> Is minimizing the risk as best we can both in wildlife and in in the agriculture industry. >> I mean, that's what success is. So, it's it's gone incredibly well so far in terms of we haven't seen a spill over to industry, but you know, our efforts all around working with industry to ensure that we minimize the impacts for when and if that occurs. That's our priority.
>> if I could just um add that the international um experience um has been that um broadscale impacts in wildlife populations once it's present and circulating like it is in Australia are very hard to minimize and that's why the focus has been to mitigate the worst impacts um where possible. The preparedness um that has been undertaken over the last two years has um focused on areas where um resilience um and population um level support can be provided for the most vulnerable species. I can't speak to in detail to that. That has been led through our threatened species commissioner um and um DQ um as well as our [clears throat] state environmental agencies. But it's certainly been a real focus that you know whilst we focus on um preparing the agricultural industry um for potential outbreaks, there has been an equal focus on where those priority species are and what what resilience to build healthy populations that can bounce back are um and what actions can be taken to protect the most vulnerable. And that's included things like investing in um the the evidence base to ensure that vaccines for example can be applied safely as part of that. Um it's certainly been recognizing the role that enhanced bio security at those facilities that house important breeding um populations from conservation um has as well. So there's been a range of actions already taken um to um as best as possible support resilient populations and that's the best um approach that's being taken
>> Minister, just just to tie title this off, one of the things I hear from people is that um [clears throat] it feels like uh and this is their words, not mine, that all the government cares about is keeping us out of a >> um and clearly this is obviously the A, you know, DAFF. So, that'll be the priority here. But, um, you know, what does the government say? Sarah was asking about funding for local vets. I've heard people saying there's not even support for local groups who are trying to pick dead birds off the beach. They're just told, "Sorry, no money." um why aren't we
>> I'm sure sure the officials can talk about the financial side of it senator but just listening to your line of questioning uh what I would input into that and I think it's been really important the issues you've raised uh from my perspective with the indigenous affairs portfolio we've wanted to make sure that the indigenous ranger groups uh are very well equipped and aware uh that is something that is of concern on the ground locally uh in terms of not only just um the bird flu itself, but the fact that there are there are animals that um community groups eat, you know, whether it's the magpai goose and Darwin or any of the other turkeys out bush. Uh so it is of concern locally and I think um I I might take on some of those things that you've raised.
>> Thank you, Minister. Thank you. Um Senator Blair,