Senate Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee [Part 2], , 0:00 to 20:18
Examination of city and regional deals, urban productivity gains from infrastructure investment, and the government's ongoing commitment to existing deal frameworks.
Topics: Infrastructure, Agricultural productivity, Grants administration
Speakers: Senator James McGrath, Senator Malarndirri McCarthy, Senator Glenn Sterle, Speaker 4, Lisa Rauter, Senator Paul Scarr, Speaker 10, Speaker 5, Speaker 9
Senator Birmingham, thank you. Welcome back, everyone. In continuation to outcome three questions
Yep.
Sure.
>> Um I was asking about city deals before. Is the Department aware of an opinion piece authored by Dr. Andrew Leigh, MP, published late last year titled The Power of Proximity, Why Getting Cities Right Matters?
It's an informal piece. Um
It's actually published on the ministerial website on the 2nd of November, 2025. It's a really interesting read. Dr. Leigh talks about how urban productivity, along with housing, depends on how well we connect people and businesses. This is, of course, closely linked with urban infrastructure gaps and connectivity in our cities. So, my question is, is the department working with Treasury through the working group to map urban infrastructure gaps in cities and growing regions?
>> Uh Senator, no, we are not mapping the No, that's not work that we're doing. We're We, from our point of view, from a city's point of view, we are just administering programs that are in urban areas. The urban policy now sits with Treasury.
>> Okay.
>> I'd say the more operative answer to your question is the work we're doing with states and territories who control statutory planning. They run public transport. They operate the road network. And we've been endeavoring over the last few years to get them to think more strategically, including in response to our infrastructure policy statement, which talks to things like housing supply, talks to things like the knowledge economy in the central cities, connecting our primary producers to international gateways, them to think strategically working with Infrastructure Australia, which then means that the projects that come to the Commonwealth are more tied to the kinds of outcomes that you're describing there.
>> So, this this is a may maybe better another area, but it's it is a broad area. Having said that, so the the department per se doesn't measure productivity gains from the investments made in city deals through transport connections?
>> There are methodologies for project business cases, for instance, for the things that we co-invest in where productivity and other benefits are measured and are captured. And Infrastructure Australia has a role in providing advice to us on the robustness of those business cases.
>> Because funny enough, Dr. Lee I don't know who's more surprised, him that I'm quoting him or uh me that I am quoting him. Actually went on to say, "When transport systems are efficient, workers can reach more employers and firms can reach more talent." That's why the government's investments through city and regional deals, 12 agreements backed by $9.4 million in federal funding and $11.7 million from our partners, are designed to strengthen local economies by improving connections between homes, jobs, and services. that's that's a pretty strong endorsement of city deals, isn't it?
>> On the face of it, that does sound like an endorsement, yes.
Is [clears throat] the department able to provide the committee with the information about how city and regional deals are strengthening local
>> Uh Senator, we have ongoing information around the delivery of the projects under the city and regional deals. And as each deal comes to a completion, and there's only been the Hinkler so far that has come to completion. Uh, we generally do an evaluation of those, um, deals.
So, in terms of, just on the Hinkler deal, the evaluation, that that's been completed?
>> No, the evaluation hasn't started yet, and there are some components of that deal, while the deal is done, components which are still in progress, particularly the infrastructure transport ones. So, uh, waiting for those to finish, which will give us the ability to look at the deal in, in total.
Minister, if the government believes, as per Dr. Lee, that city deals have done such a great job improving connections between homes, jobs, and services, why has the government abandoned them?
>> In terms of city deals?
>> Yes.
>> I wouldn't say we've abandoned them, Senator McGrath, but I'm happy to take that question on notice.
>> Uh, well, uh, since uh, the government was elected in 2022, um, no new city or regional deals have been, uh, proposed by the government. So, I I I I put it to you that is an abandonment of of city deals, because you haven't actually brought any new ones on
>> Well, well, I don't agree with you, and I've answered your question, Senator McGrath.
>> What part of my question don't you agree
>> That we we haven't abandoned city deals. Uh, when we we're certainly committed to seeing those city deals that go through, uh, whether it was Townsville, whether it was Darwin, all of those areas. Uh, and I said I'd take the question on notice.
>> So, what new city deals will the government bring forward?
>> Well, let me take that question on notice for you, Senator McGrath.
>> So, you you you don't know. Uh this is an interesting um conundrum we we face here in that you've said that you're not abandoning city deals. You've been in power for over 4 years. you haven't extended any of the current city or regional deals, and you haven't proposed any new city deals. So, I put it to you that uh you have abandoned city deals.
>> We haven't abandoned anywhere, Senator McGrath. Our government is very committed to wider cross Australia. Uh what I will tell you is this, that there are 10 deals currently active plus the Albury-Wodonga Regional Projects Initiative, which is being managed under a similar arrangement. Um 10 active deals are located in Adelaide, we know the Barkly, Tennant Creek and surrounds, Darwin, Geelong, Hobart, Launceston, Perth, Townsville, Southeast Queensland, and Western Sydney. Uh I think it's really important that uh this committee is aware of just how much investment goes into uh these cities across the country, and not just under a city deal per se.
>> All the city deals you just mentioned there were were city deals that uh account were enacted or came into force when the coalition what was in power. So, why hasn't the government committed to any further city deals if they're such a good thing as you've indicated and as Dr. Andrew Leigh indicated in his very uh informative opinion piece.
>> Well, how about we complete uh the city deals that are currently underway, Senator McGrath, and then we'll be able to get back to you to answer the rest of your question on
>> So, some of the deals won't be produced for a couple of years, so the government, which promised to be the most transparent and accountable government ever, is saying that you'll [laughter] answer the question later.
>> to Which it is. Let's have a look at your time in government, Senator McKenzie.
This is why there is transparency now as opposed to
>> Order.
I would really like
to just Let's Let's just ask questions. Let's listen to answers. We don't need people chirping in at this time of night. No, she wasn't chirping. I do like to listen to the other senator. I've just said I didn't mention any names. I said about Let's ask the question. Let's hear the answer. We don't need to be shouting over each other. So, Senator McGrath, you put the question and
>> I I I was asking the questions, but that is correct. In terms of the minister has said that the the the government the government will answer uh the question on city deals once the city deals have been finalized. And considering that the city deals and number of city deals won't be finalized for for a couple of years, I would suggest that's not a particularly transparent and accountable way uh to to respond to the question.
>> Oh, what rubbish, Senator. That is not true. It's not about uh not answering your question. It It is rubbish. I've said to you that I'll take that question on notice, and then you go on and put a big preamble about all these other things in terms of uh not respecting these cities, and that's absolute rubbish. Our government is investing right across the country in all those cities. Now, I know we talked about cities before. I know that the coalition sensitive to having lost cities seats, and I know what you're trying to do, Senator McGrath, but we are very strongly invested in these cities, and whether you call them city deals or another name, the investment is still there.
>> Are city deals good, Minister?
>> As I've said, Senator McGrath, there are 10 deals currently active. And those deals in those cities that I've mentioned are funded and administered in a variety of ways, and we want to see those deals come through. In particular, in the Barkley, Senator McGrath.
>> So, I just want to confirm, Minister, that the government has no plans for any new city deals.
>> What I can confirm for you, Senator McGrath, is that >> the 10 city deals currently underway need to be completed. >> Well, let's see. I did say to you that I would get back to you with taking a question on notice in terms of any future steps. So, I have answered your question, Senator McGrath.
>> So, you you you haven't been able to answer the question as as to whether uh the government thinks city deals are good. Uh and so, I'm putting that question to you as to whether you think >> [clears throat] >> city deals are good.
>> Senator McGrath, there are deals underway that need to be completed. If we didn't think that they were important, we would have moved away from those deals. Those deals are currently underway.
>> But, are the deals good?
>> Well, why wouldn't they be, Senator McGrath?
>> Well, I I'm asking you you Minister >> they be good? >> I mean, if we're committed to continuing
with the deals, why wouldn't they be good?
>> Yes, yes, yes.
>> Well, sometimes you can have
interaction.
Sometimes Sometimes senators like to interact with ministers, and ministers like to interact.
>> The minister has very much committed to taking the the senator's questions on notice as well. So, she's gone to great lengths to confirm that she has taken that on notice.
>> Yes, that's right. And I will stay on the point of order. You throw us out, Minister, cuz we're not programmed to We're only programmed to ask at this end. Um it's a bit of light humor at this time of night. It's probably to get over it, everyone. Okay. Now, Senator McGrath, do you have further questions?
how is the government planning to improve connections in cities and growing regions if they're not going to invest in more city deals? >> I So, sorry. I Sorry, my question is to the minister. Sorry. Sorry, to secretary.
>> Nice try. I And I will refer to uh the officials uh given they have the expertise in this area, Senator McGrath, but I do believe I have answered your questions in terms of the 10 deals that are currently active. And we are supportive of that.
>> Well, I suppose my question to you, Minister, is and it is to you, Minister, how is the government planning to improve connections in cities and growing regions if they're not going to invest in more city deals? So, I'm putting it to you as the minister at the table.
>> Yes, but I've said to you that that is not the case in terms of you're putting into your question an assumption that there will be no more. I've said I will take that question on notice and yet you continue to go along that line of questioning
>> No, I I don't
>> as though it is an answer, Senator McGrath. Is that correct?
>> I don't think you actually heard the question, Minister. The question is
>> the question. You just don't like the answer.
>> No, the question is to you, Minister, is how is the government planning to improve connections in cities and growing regions if they're not going to invest in any more city deals?
>> Well, you see, that second part of your question is where you're going wrong, Senator McGrath. I have said I will take that question on notice. You've made an assumption and that's where your line of questioning is going.
>> Well, with with respect, Minister, the answers you've given this evening have all been predicated on you taking them on notice because you're unable to give an assurance of any new city deals or an extension of continuing city deals. So, rather than we let's play word play, Minister, how's the government planning to improve connections in cities and growing regions?
>> Exactly the way we are doing now with the grants that we've already explored through uh uh the major projects. In fact, I think you asked questions earlier on in terms of the UPP and the RPP. I mean, these are really important areas. Do you not think so, Senator McGrath?
>> Well, I find it interesting, Minister, that the Urban Precincts and Partnerships Program exclusively gave grants to non-coalition seats uh which make uh the Marrickville Golf Club scandal uh blush, uh considering that that quite partisan expenditure of taxpayer funds. >> But, Minister, do you accept that the Thriving Suburbs program and the Urban Precincts and Partnerships program, which have effectively replaced the City Deals program, don't have the same coordinated focus on strengthening local economies that Dr. Lee has endorsed as your assistant minister for productivity?
>> Do I accept it? Is that what you're asking? I'm not really sure of your question there, Senator McGrath. I'm not sure uh
>> Someone will tell you.
>> what Dr. Lee has said there you're referring to.
>> Could you Could you explain to the committee what you understand by City Deals?
>> No, no. You explain to me what you mean by uh Senator Senator, you explain to me what you mean by by Mr. Lee. I mean, you've asked me a question about someone who uh whose words I'm not familiar with or what commentary you're referring to, so it would help.
>> Um I I will I think I need to understand from you, Minister, what understanding you have of city and regional deals.
>> Well, we've just been through that when I talked to you about uh
>> No, you took the notice.
>> the current deals.
>> You took the questions on that.
>> I explained to you about the current deals, the 10 deals, and I'll repeat them. Uh currently active plus the Albury-Wodonga Regional Projects Initiative, which is being managed under a similar arrangement. The 10 active deals located in Adelaide, Barkly, Darwin, Geelong, Hobart, Launceston, Perth, Townsville, Southeast Queensland, and Western Sydney. That's what we were talking about, Senator McGrath.
it is getting repetitive.
>> But, I I but question the question I'll put the question chair and then there's my final question.
>> And look, you may not like the the answer but I'm giving you the call.
>> Dr. Lee in his very powerful opinion piece on the 2nd of November 2025 has praised city deal programs because they have a coordinate focus on strengthening local economies and I put to you Minister that the thriving suburbs program and the urban precincts and partnership program don't have that same focus on strengthening local economies through that coordinate focus. Would you accept that?
>> Well, I put to you Senator that you may need to table that document so I could have a read of it.
>> That's a fair request and so do you have
>> take it on notice Minister like you have with all the other questions.
>> Well, I think in all fairness
>> I certainly like that that document tabled given it's
>> It's on the website. Look it up. Google
it. >> No, no, no, no, hang on now Senator. Now, what we do do and this is currently this that the witnesses or ministers or the officers do ask for we table it.
>> Well, that can be tabled.
>> Yeah, but in all fairness, I mean to throw that line that look it up it's on the website. >> Well, I think that you can listen to them rather than me.
>> On a point of order.
>> No, no, no point of order. No, hear me out. No. >> I've got to hear the
>> No, no, no, no, Senator, I withdraw I withdraw the point of order.
>> Because I've sat in this room many times when someone on that side of the fence has said look it up on the website and this side of the table has erupted and I've always supported this side of the table on that side. As I would support Minister's request. Okay, Senator, do you have any further
>> Yeah, I do. I just would put a comment it's very disappointing Minister that the attitude you've taken this evening with your your failure to come to here in good good faith to answer the questions that have been put by the coalition in relation to the city deals. And I would ask you to reflect upon that in terms of the parliament going forward as to how the executive treats members of of of the backbench and of the opposition and of the crossbench. It is very important for the executive to respect those questions being put to members of the executive and cuz we are speaking here on behalf of the taxpayers and the voters of Australia. And I realize answering questions is something that is not particularly appealing to to members of the executive, but the questions are put to you with with earnest goodwill to see >> [clears throat] >> how taxpayers funds are expended.
>> Through the chair.
>> Yes, Minister.
>> Senator McGrath, if you've been offended by my responses, then I will certainly take that on notice. It's certainly not my intention and it's certainly not my intention to keep repeating myself and feeling like I'm being disrespected in the responses that I'm providing to the committee. Thank you, chair.
>> Thank you, Minister. Are there any further questions or we're in outcome