Senate Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee [Part 2], , 4:00:36 to 4:20:16
AFMA provides statistics on illegal fishing vessel interceptions and the resulting prosecutions. The discussion shifts to the federal intervention to ban gillnet fishing in the Great Barrier Reef and its implications for domestic food security.
Topics: Fisheries, Food security, International law
Speakers: Senator Susan McDonald, Wez Norris, Speaker 22, Speaker 18, Victoria Anderson, Senator Ross Cadell, Speaker 5
>> Thank you. And we'll let you go and we'll now call um AFMA, the Australian Fisheries Management Authority, who I believe appearing via video conference. >> I think two in the room and one room. >> No, sorry. They're in the room. >> And one on video conference. >> And one on video conference. One witness appearing via video conference. My mistake. My apologies. >> Mr. Norris, welcome. Do you wish to make a brief opening statement? >> No. Thank you, Chair. >> Thank you very much. Questions. Senator McDonald.
>> Thank you very much, Chair, and good evening everybody. I want to ask some questions around DEA data collected by the department uh of through onboard observers electronic monitoring regarding inter and obviously this is in North Queensland uh regarding interactions with Jongs turtles and dolphins since the monitoring requirements were
>> Um thanks very much Senator Wes Norris chief executive officer. Um, can I just uh clarify, you're talking about data that APHMA collects on Commonwealth fishing vessels?
>> That's right. And I would assume you also have oversight of uh any other data collected under state um jurisdictions.
>> Thanks, Senator. So, um let me answer the second part of your question first. No, we don't have any um uh any authority or uh or role in those data collection programs. We are working with a number of jurisdictions including Queensland to try and um avoid the development of parallel systems and data collection methods and to have a national approach instead. Um and that includes us making the offer to jurisdictions that we can implement electronic monitoring programs uh on behalf of those jurisdictions or in partnership with those jurisdictions should they wish. Uh but we don't have any of those arrangements in place at
the moment. So, you don't review any of the Queensland data?
>> No. As I say, we've we've had conversations with them about the impending roll out for the um troll fishery. Uh and also, uh whether there's any role in the NX fishery, I think it's called, um that we might be able to play, but those arrangements aren't in
So, um, I I've got a a number of questions that I might might put on notice to you just so that we don't hold everybody else up, but you know that the Gil net fisheries or Gil net fishing has the the fishery is um the cessation is to end Gil net fishing by 2027. and it was uh not based on any data that we can observe. Um given that there is now a program jointly funded between the federal and state governments called fish light looking for alternate fishing models uh to gil net fishing that assessment uh do you have any input oversight um monitoring knowledge of
>> Thank you Senator [clears throat] um yes we and I apologize We were asked to do a small amount of footage review from uh the fishlight trials
>> and and do you have any uh have you made any assessment of that?
>> Senator, with with your indulgence, I'd like to take the question on notice. Um given that it is a matter of the relationship between us as a Commonwealth agency and the Queensland government, I I would um appreciate the opportunity to talk with the uh the Queensland Department.
>> Fair enough. So um I have written to the uh state and federal minister asking for the decision to end gil net fishing to be delayed until the end of the fishlight program uh assessment period which is 2030. I I'm seeking advice from you on what uh data you are you are collecting or you would have to input into the decision-making process particularly given that it's the federal government granted the environment minister who made the decision to legislate for the end of gil net fishing.
>> Thanks Senator. Um and I I apologize. Guys, I know this is going to be frustrating to you. We did not have any involvement in that decision making. It wasn't involving any data that we have about our own fisheries.
>> All right. Well, I suspected that. Otherwise, the decision would not have been made, I don't believe. Um, all right. So, how about I put a number of these questions on notice to you? um will will you have input into alternate fishing methods that are being assessed? So the the fish light program have you assessed the option of extending the fishery under existing monitoring arrangements um and examining alternate methodologies?
>> No, I wouldn't expect that we would have
Why do you think sorry so I consider the AFMA AFMA as being kind of Australia's preeminent fishing uh body? Um why wouldn't you have input
jurisdictional arrangements um have evolved over a long period of time that that um focus very heavily on the principle of single jurisdiction management um which is each jurisdiction having responsibility for its own fisheries. Um I I wouldn't say that AHMA has any greater role than a state agency. We just manage a different set of fisheries to to them. Um, so I
applaud that as a state senator, you know, and a big believer in states rights. I think that's a a good approach except that and from Queensland. Thank you, Senator Scarr. But but the terrible reality we have is that the federal government has trampled all over our state's rights and introduced legislation to remove the right to gil net fishing in our own fisheries.
sorry, Senator. There questions for the environment minister or the or the department of the queue.
>> All right, I shall provide you with some questions uh on notice. Just finally, can I ask in the department's professional opinion? Can you explain what is the legal effect in Australian law of a UNESCO commitment and the World Heritage Committee decision on Australian fishing uh fishing areas?
>> No, I'm afraid I can't, Senator. I have no knowledge or insight into UNESCO.
>> All right, Minister, [snorts] um can you assist me with this? How have we got a federal government decision given that the preeminent federal government fishing uh authority has had no input into uh the decision to end gil net fishing? Who should I be directing my uh questions and attention to?
>> Well, my understanding is the phase out of gil net fishing is more a responsibility for the Queensland government and to a lesser extent to the queue. Uh so I'd be suggesting you start with those. Senator McDonald. Well, I
did attempt that, but the director general, this director general in Queensland of fisheries has sent me a copy of the legislation that the federal government passed banning the use of gil net gil nets in fishing. So, uh, I think the problem now rests with us as the commonwealth and it's now legislated Do perhaps the the department, the secretary could assist me here. Which one overrides the other? Who wins? the
>> Well, if usually the implementation of an international commitment has to be done through domestic law. So, I'm making an assumption here because I have no personal knowledge of that, but I imagine that that ban was uh an effect of implementing an international commitment, but we can take that on notice, Senator, and and check with our colleagues in DQ to confirm that.
>> So, that I would appreciate that because there seems to be a great deal of confusion over who has responsibility for this. Um my concern is that for this department it will be the removal of tons and tons of fish that's currently available both to the domestic market and some to go overseas. And we talked earlier today about food security plan given that we import um I think we've got it down to 65 or 70% of the fish that we eat in Australia. an extraordinary number given we're surrounded by oceans. c uh can can you tell me or can you point me to where in the food security plan we'd be examining our own ability to to fish for ourselves?
>> Yeah. So I think uh as we talked about this morning the the production element of the food security strategy would include fisheries. So it's it's not just about land-based sort of farming. So um I think [clears throat] it would be in incorporated in that thinking and >> uh I I guess considering you know what proportion of domestic production we should have in order to support our our solid food security would be part of that um that strategy consideration.
And Senator, if I could just add to the secretary's comments, um absolutely. Um the matters you've raised are um matters that we're actively considering in relation to the food security strategy. Um and in part the kind of in part the matters you refer to are kind of in relation to the spatial squeeze um question which is the pressure on I guess the kind of the fishery estate. Um, we are working with the CSRO to better understand where Australia's most productive seafood areas are now and are likely to be in the future. This work is intended to assist government industry make evidence-based decisions about investment and spatial management
that makes sense that we'd be examining um the viability of our own uh fishing areas, but uh it it seems I have asked questions previously of um Fisheries Research and Development Corporation about the sustainability of the fishing stocks particularly baramundi and gray tuna and the other fish that have been affected by this by this impacts and all of them are considered s sustainable. None of them were considered under threat. Um I I am really perplexed how we have got such a huge percentage of seafood coming into Australia when we're an island nation surrounded by I don't think anybody doesn't think we don't have bountiful waters, relatively small population. Um and and tonight to discover that the fisheries, the Australian Fisheries Management Authority has no knowledge of the legislative change that bans gil net fishing, a practice that is very highly targeted and well-managed and has almost zero interactions with other species, uh is really concerning to me and shocking. I I look to you as an organization as being, you know, the preeminent fish experts in the country. And yet you're telling me you don't know the legislation that banned gil net fishing in Australia. You don't have knowledge of the of the um the data and the decision making around alternate fishing methods. And we will potentially lose tons and tons of Australian c fish from our own catcheries and then import more from overseas from seafood areas that um are not well managed and certainly not to our high standards. This is this is I think possibly the most talked about issue in far north Queensland. We have fishing families in tears. We have chandlers and and small boat motors who are wondering if they'll survive. Ice makers um pensioners. I've stood in seafood shops in Ingam and places where pensioners come in and look at the fish and the prices have already gone up 25 to 30% because of the reductions on um the the catch that's available to fishes. and and here we are the the the Commonwealth authority and you can't discuss this with me.
>> Senator, perhaps if I could just add I guess as responsibilities are confined in large it kind of almost entirely to Commonwealth waters um which it is the responsible regulator for. I think the fishery that we're is in question is a fishery that's managed by the Queensland
government, the state of Queensland >> legislated.
>> So the federal government's legislation I think as the secretary has mentioned um is a matter that sits outside our portfolio set of responsibility and is best directed to to another part of government.
>> I know we've talked about this previously tonight. This is this is frankly why Australians are going mad. Anybody listening to this would say, "How is the agricultural department not across food production from fisheries and this absolutely crazy political decision to shut down gil net fishing which is going to affect my ability to get fish? The price I pay." I mean, Australians already import 1 million tins of tuna and consume it. 1 million tins of tuna a day. And what are we doing about it? Well, we're we're going to shovel more more imported fish into our shelves and onto our on into our you know, it sounds like I'm having a go and I am having a go, but this is BS, isn't it? This is absolutely the worst of utopia and government in action and appalling decisionmaking. And you're the ACT department. you're responsible for our food security and we're all sitting here with our hands on our thumbs going uh it's somebody else's problem >> please chair please
>> I can understand your frustration it's been a >> bad couple of days but um >> and and please I'm just waiting for the answer but I will plead with my colleagues we've got
>> no no I'm sorry
>> can we get to them or can we release
them in the inspector general General Bio Security.
>> Thank you very much. I appreciate that. Senator Gadell, Regional Investment Corporation, Inspector General Bio Security. I'm sorry it took so long, but it's not the fault of the committee. There's a lot of people coming in. Thank you very much. Senator McDonald, you had asked the question.
>> Senator,
>> Mr. Low, you will have a
>> certainly chair as you've expressed, we appreciate your frustration in relation to the matter. Um we we are concerned ourselves our primary responsibility in relation to fisheries is in relation to Commonwealth fisheries as well not state fisheries. Um as you as you mentioned states rights we do live in a federation um and we do have to respect those constitutional boundaries. Um so we are cognizant of that. The matter that you referred to though is one that does um does concern us. Um and we certainly as a starting point think that an important I guess policy um development has been the introduction of mandatory country of or origin labeling for seafood in food service establishments. I think the first thing you can do is ensure that consumers are aware whether it's being produced from Australia, whether it's imported or whether it's mixed. And that's what the um the policy intervention has done. And I think consumers, arming consumers with that information so they can make a choice about what's locally produced is I think
an important starting point. It's it is, but unfortunately all we'll be telling them is whether or not it's come from Indonesia or the Philippines or China or some other place. It'll just be which foreign place it's come from. So the feds have done two things that we should hang our heads in shame on. The first is we've increased the zone and the um NQ uh edex fishing area. And the second is we have legislated over states rights, states responsibilities because it's not just in the Commonwealth waters. It's being implemented into inshore um fishing zones. So I I will leave it there, chair, but this is this is absolutely appalling decision making and um I look forward to following up with you >> with those questions on notice. Yeah.
>> Just quickly, um, how many vessels, uh, have you prosecuted for illegal fishing? 25 26. Now it's 26 27 going so far.
>> Yeah, thanks, Senator. So 2526 [clears throat] uh ended up um with very good results. Lowest number of um incursions um for for 3 years. Um 54% uh 103 vessel interceptions. 54% of those resulted in the vessel being destroyed. Um and uh and prosecution of the crew. 330 uh no sorry that's the wrong number.
>> Big number. Yeah.
>> Uh where's prosecutions? 213 individuals prosecuted.
>> Um >> you look at tonnage as well as numbers.
>> Um I have tonnage of of the um of the catch that was seized from >> if I can get that on notice. I'm happy
that
>> um uh this year has has also started out very positively. Uh low low number of sightings. um only uh 11 interdictions, 10 of which have resulted in prosecution and uh destruction of the fishing vessels. So um so we're seeing lower lower number of incursions, higher impact of our um or our collective interventions against them.
>> Okay. And everything working well with border force, no problems that we should be aware of. Anything resourcing, everything going well with your
integration? Uh yes, I I think uh I reported in the last hearings uh we we were part of an integrated funding package for this um for this calendar year. We're working on what that looks like for the future. Um and the the consultation and cooperation mechanisms are working well.
>> Thank you very much. Thanks, Jeff.