Senate Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee [Part 2], , 2:17:50 to 2:33:14
The Inspector-General of Live Animal Export provides an update on office staffing, independence, and the implementation of departmental recommendations. Senators inquire about the use of body cameras for inspections and the oversight of regulatory frameworks.
Topics: Live animal exports, Public service staffing, Integrity
Speakers: Dr Ash Bunce, Speaker 17, Speaker 1, Victoria Anderson, Unknown Speaker, Interjection, Speaker 18
>> Thank you very much. We are done with outcome two. Have a great night. Um the committee has agreed to release Wine Australia. Um and I now call the Inspector General of Animal Welfare and Live Exports.
Can I just um offer a correction to the record if that's all right? Dr. Finnin's asked me to indicate he he responded to Senator Canavan that there were six submissions in response to the pineapples issue that was being discussed, but they're actually 19. So if I can correct that on the record, 19, not six. Thank you. >> This was the not unexlo.
>> Uh thank you for that. I'll come to and we now um welcome um Dr. Ashley Bunts. Welcome. Thanks for coming along. Dr. Bun, um, in the interest of time, would you like to make a brief opening statement? Uh,
>> in the interest of time, no, I won't make an opening statement, but I am happy to take questions.
>> Thank you very much, Senator Blair.
>> Thank you, acting chair. It's really good to see this role finally filled. Um, what have you been up to since you started in the role?
>> Uh, thank you. Yes, so I started in the role on the 1st of May this year. So I'm coming up to almost 6 months in the role. Um and so in the time that I've been in the role, I've been doing various things. At the last estimates, I commented I've been doing a lot of stakeholder engagement. I felt it's important as a new inspector general to go and particularly given the length of time between when my predecessor left the role to go and re-engage with stakeholders. So I've done a lot of trips uh to Darwin, Perth, Portland, and our towns more recently uh to go and meet with industry uh go and doing uh observe what happens in the live export trade. So I've been and to what they call registered establishments and seen vets going through doing inspections. Um I've spoken to the vets. I've spoken to the operators, spoken to industry. I've also met with a lot of animal welfare groups as well. So I've met with the key animal welfare groups in that time. It's been really important for me to hear the perspectives of all those different groups uh around the live animal export trade um to help inform the work program that I've been developing. And so in terms of the things I've been focused on, uh the first thing was to publish an annual work plan. So [clears throat] one of the requirements for the inspector general is to publish an annual work plan. So I published the work plan on the 6th of August, I believe it was, uh this year. Uh so that's been published. It outlines the reviews that I'm intending to do this year. Um, one of the things, um, coming into the role, my predecessor had, uh, commenced two reviews, um, but they were un essentially unfinished at the time that she left the role. So, I've inherited those reviews and I've been working on those, in particular, one of those reviews. Uh, I've also published the annual report, uh, which I believe went up last week on the website. So uh again one of the requirements of the role is to publish an annual report each year which outlines uh the activities that have been performed by the office in that in that previous year and um also happy to announce that I've uh developed a memorandum of understanding with the department which has been signed off today. So that's um been a great achievement as well today. It got signed >> not quite. Ashley came through this afternoon and um I was just getting ready and I thought y let's sign that and get that moving. So, uh that's been unsigned as well. I am in the process as I indicated of one of those reviews that was started by Dr. Katherine Clif. Uh I provided it to the department for a fact check. I believe it was the 25th of September. uh they responded I believe on the 16th of October and I'm just going through and my office is going through looking at the responses uh to that process and considering any changes or amendments to the report before we finalize it.
>> Well, you you've done a lot. How many staff do you have? >> in addition to yourself.
>> In addition to myself. So, I'm part-time uh and I have one full-time staff member.
>> And is that someone from the department or do you sec people from the department?
>> So, it's from the department. department allocate staff to the office uh to support the functions of the role. Uh and uh there's one uh staff member who's allocated to essentially manage the operations of the office.
>> And do you also still hold the position as ACT commissioner for sustainability and the environment?
>> I do. Yeah. So, um sorry, just with me. >> They're both part-time roles. So in addition to inspector general uh which is a part-time role, I'm also a part-time commissioner uh with the ACT government as commissioner for sustainability and environment.
>> And do you split the roles on an as needs basis or you you clearly define what you do each day of the week?
>> Yeah, so they they are clearly defined. So the commissioner role is more of a what you call a normal part-time role. Uh so there's a number of days per week that are working in that role. With the inspector general role, it's a there's a cap of up to 120 days per year under admination tribunal. And so that is then flexible based on the work program that I do as the inspector general. So it's at this stage I've committed to the department that I'll do the inspector general role on a Friday um but then other days as required. Um for instance, if there's travels required or there's other things that are required um then I'll do additional days on a needs
basis. So given your role is to independently assess the department, do you find that there's challenges involved in that independence when your staff is from the department?
>> I haven't found that to date. Um the the staff that have been have been allocated uh so when I started the role staff member retired at the end of June uh and the new staff member actually used to work for the inspector general of bio security has worked I believe for all the inspector generals of bio security. So he's well well understanding of what the role is uh and the separation between my role and the department and theou deals with a lot of those arrangements and puts in place just trying to protect that independence.
>> Uh now you already did touch on this in your very um helpful answer to my first question around what you've gotten up to. Um but just to recap and ask you some questions about it. In August 2024, the then inspector general published a report on the department's performance in implementing the IG's recommendations from six prior reports published between March 2020 and April 24.
>> Yes,
>> you're obviously aware of that. You've caught up very well. I can tell. Um now that report found that out of 48 recommendations the department had only implemented 13 as at August 2024 but the then inspector general disputed that number and said the actual number was six. So in the latest annual report the department now claims to have closed 27 of the 48 recommendations. Have I got it right so far?
>> There is an update since that. Okay, I
look forward to hearing from you about that because that would leave 21 open, but closing or doesn't necessarily mean that implementation is complete. Do you agree with that?
>> Uh, I would. Yes. Um, so part of the role is so just to go back, sorry. Of the 48 recommendations, uh, the department's now closed 32 of those recommendations and there's 16 that remain open. uh the department has a process for reviewing the implementation of recommendations and there's a determination by the department uh whether those actions have been completed and can be closed or if they remain open. um that's separate to to my role. But obviously one of the functions of this role is to look at you know of any independent oversight body we need to consider how effective we are in our role and part of that is making sure that those recommendations are implemented to full effect given the nature of what the intention of the recommendations were. So I think it's important to periodically go back and look at uh previous reviews and recommendations and in particular the department's uh decision to close recommendations and independently assess whether that meets the intent of what the recommendation was. Um I have met with uh Mr. Ross Carter who was the first inspector general. I've also had a number of meetings with Dr. Katherine Clif as well and spoken to them about their reviews and their recommendations and um I have those relationships so that if at some point in the future I determined that it will be useful to go back and look at reviews uh and implementation recommendations I'm able to go one of the things is when you draft as an inspector general recommendations um you have in your mind clear what you want intent in that it's very there's an art and a craft to writing recommendations so it's clear about what the intent of the recommend ation is, but it provides some flexibility to the department about how it's actually implemented. So, um it's useful to have those relationships to just go and test with those people who wrote those recommendations at the time whether it did actually meet what they
with a recommendation from 2021 for the department to trial the use of body cameras for regional veterary officers and auditors for use during inspections and on-site audits? Because it looks to me like that has been closed, but all that occurred was that there was an agreement in principle to the concept. Has there actually been some meaningful attention to that recommendation on the
aware at at a high level of the previous reviews. I'm not aware of that particular recommendation and what the department has done in relation to that recommendation. Um but happy to take that on notice and and you know turn my attention to it in the future.
>> Oh, thank you. Please do uh formally take that on notice. So, have you been able to do an assessment of um how many of the 48 recommendations from your predecessors have actually been adequately implemented? I think you gave us an update on on the number that you see as having been addressed, but in your opinion, um I can see that you approach this as a genuine professional. what about proper implementation of of those 48 recommendations? What do you what do you say?
>> It's not something I've turned my attention to at this point in time. Uh my focus has been really on trying to progress those two reviews that were undertaken by my predecessor. Given there's been a period of time now since when they were were done and were completed. I think it's important given the range of uh work and input provided by a whole range of stakeholders to inform those reviews. I think it's really important necessary for me to get those published and out in the public domain. So that's been my focus to date is to try and get those reviews progressed. Um, part of the consultation I've been doing with stakeholders is hearing from them what they see as their priorities for me to to give some attention to uh and to consider. Um, and there's a range of topics that they've highlighted with me that they see as the highest priorities. The implementation of recommendations that has been raised, but it's certainly not up there in a list of priorities that stakeholders have raised with me that they'd like me to um give some priority to. So I I think at some point in time I will look at those um implementation recommendations, but again with a part-time role with one staff member um I need to focus my energy on where I'm going to get the best outcomes. And so that's that's the approach I'm taking.
>> And in that regard, what's the most urgent recommendation that the government needs to implement, do you think? Because what you consider urgent would I imagine take your time with priority?
>> Uh look, I'm I'm probably not able to answer that. Um, you know, I like I said, I've been focused on getting those other reviews completed rather than looking at the implementation of previous recommendations, noting that the last report was done in 2024. So, we're only about 2 years out from it now. So, it's probably will come up in a point in time to look at that again. Um, but my priority has been on the existing reviews and commencing u my annual work plan as well.
>> Thank you. and the recommendation from 2021 for the department to update the exporter supply chain assurance system animal welfare standards to be consistent with the world organization for animal health terrestrial animal health group remains open. Do you know whether the government has even commenced a review or where are they up to? Um I think it's a 5-year-old
a question for the department. I'm not able to answer that. Is it something
that you can take on notice or it's just outside of your remit?
>> Um, I'm happy to take it on notice and have those conversations with the department, but um, yeah,
>> I'm grateful. Please do. Um, how would you characterize the federal Labor government's adherence to an implementation of live animal exports legislation and standards?
So one of the reviews that I've included in my annual work plan is to undertake a review of the effectiveness of the regulatory framework. Uh so I am in the process of outlining the the scope and terms of reference for that review which will look at some of those issues that you've just raised. Um so that's still in very early stages. So I'm not able to comment on a particular view at this point in time. Uh going into any uh review it's important to be you know independent impartial and take a evidence-based approach. uh and consult broadly with a whole range of stakeholders. So it's something that I'm intending to look at. Um but at this point in time um I you know still in the early stages of doing that.
>> Right. And what's your role as inspector general in the phase out and ending of live sheep export by May 28.
>> So in terms of the phase out of uh live sheep export, the department has a range of programs in place including a transition advocate who's helping to support that process. Uh my role directly um my role is provide oversight and assurance that the department is performing its role as a regulator effectively. Uh and part of the reasoning for doing the review around the regulatory framework is it's quite timely with the phase out of live sheep to look at the whole uh regulatory framework which was being developed over many years in response to various incidents across a whole range of trade. uh and with the phase out of life sheep taking an independent look at that framework and providing [clears throat] advice to to the government about uh any improvements that are uh would be recommended.
>> Thank you. And just lastly from me I call for production of theou that you entered into today and there will be a date by which that that document is to be provided. Thank you very much for attending today. It was lovely to meet you and that's all from me.
>> Great. Thank you.
>> Thanks Senator. There's any other further question as to the inspector general of animal welfare? None. Dr. Burns, we can say you can run