Senate Environment and Communications Legislation Committee, , 1:45:45 to 2:14:46
Discussion centers on the federal response to the South Australian algal bloom, including research funding for CSIRO and AquaWatch.
Topics: Algal bloom, Drought and disaster support, Fisheries
Speakers: Hon Murray Watt, Sarah Hanson-Young, Miss Belinda Jago, Katrina Maguire, Dean Knudson, Dr Ilse Kiessling, Varun Ghosh
>> Thank you, Senator McDonald. Um, that concludes the examination of the corporate matters of the Department of Climate Change, Energy, the Environment, and Water. Um, I now call officers from the department in relation to outcome two, conserve, protect, and sustainably manage Australia's environment through a nature positive approach. Program 2.1, conserve, protect, and sustainably manage manage Australia's environment. And um so that's 2.1 uh as wait one moment um as officials so broadcasting, if you'll just suspend for one moment while the officials come casting if we could have back on. Thank you very much. Uh and I'll hand the call over to Senator Hanson Young.
>> Thank you. Um, I've got a bunch of questions in relation to the algal bloom, the toxic algal bloom in South Australia that I imagine you're all up to speed with that uh has reared its head again and is actually getting firstly, I'd like to know where the government is up to in responding to uh the list of recommendations from uh the Senate inquiry into the algor Bloom.
>> Um the officials might be able to elaborate, Senator, but um we are uh finalizing that report, the the government's response. That has not been done yet. In fact, I don't think we're up to the required time frame for reply, but work is underway to prepare that response. Um, but in the meantime, um, as you know, our department continues to lies with the South Australian government. Um, I've made the point before that the South Australian government has primary responsibility in in responding to the event. We are supporting them in that effort. Um, I continue to speak regularly myself with the South Australian government minister. Um, but perhaps Ms. Maguire and others can can add any further
>> Oh, uh, Katrina Maguire, head of the International Environment, Reef, and Ocean Division. Um, uh, yeah, just to, uh, elaborate a little more. Um, you'd appreciate the recommendations cut across multiple uh, departments and so we are working with those departments to make sure we give due attention to each of those recommendations before providing the uh, draft advice to
government. Mhm. But you are working on a response.
>> Absolutely.
>> Um and uh while the uh time frame may not have been um you know the deadline may not have been reached yet. I'm just wondering minister or the secretary is there is there a sense of when we should expect a
response? Well, from memory, the the usual um period for a response is is 3 months from tableabling. So, um
>> it's it's soon then.
>> It's Yeah, I I don't think it'll be too far away.
has there been any work done uh in relation to uh budget preparations as a result of uh your response to the algo bloom or um learnings? I don't I don't
think it's customary to provide and from your reaction it looks like you know that
>> but customary or not minister I mean you can if you want to tell us what's going on
>> uh we don't provide details about budget processes in estimates hearings >> okay >> as you know
>> um has there been any further requests from the South Australian government for more financial support given the fact that the algo bloom has stretched well beyond the farmer and um has gotten worse.
>> Not that I'm aware of. Um that the officials might be able to provide another answer, but not that I'm aware of. Uh and I would be confident in saying that not all of the money that we have already provided has been used. Um and that that shouldn't be a surprise. Some of those some of those initiatives um were to be undertaken very quickly. Some were more longer long term and rolling out over the longer period. The other point I'd make is that certainly as of last week um the information that I was receiving was that certainly um there were concerns about the algo bloom. I think it was particularly around the York Peninsula uh and other areas. However, metropolitan beaches in in Adelaide were still in a very good position. Um so I wouldn't want people to get the wrong impression that uh the situation is as bad as it was last winter. It you know there are issues in some areas and we need to deal with those. Um, but we certainly shouldn't let people think that the situation is as bad as it was last year.
>> Um, I think the communities on the York Peninsula would
there are significant impacts again
there and the fact that it is now creeping up into the Spencer Gulf which um of course hadn't happened um to the extent that it is now. So it's you know in terms of protecting our fisheries and our the the nurseries for our fisheries I think there's a real concern there
>> that I'm I'm not not uh by any means saying that there's no concern. And there is I guess and what I'm saying is that it to the best of my knowledge um it is geographically you know restricted if you like um the areas where there is concern as you know senator one of the real challenges with this is that no no one has come up with a solution um there's there's not really anything we can do to stop this what we can do um is undertake the sort of initiatives that we have in partnership with the South Australian government and you know we remain committed to doing that. Um
you've said that not all the money that has been committed um already has been spent. Could we have a breakdown of what has been spent and what hasn't? That would be helpful.
>> We we may need to take that on notice and in fact it may need to be answered by the South Australian government. I mean we the the the way this is done is that you know we we agreed on a certain financial contribution um you know with a breakdown of this this amount for that activity this amount for that activity we then forward that money to the South Australian government who administers those programs. So for argument's sake I suspect that uh not all of the money that was allocated towards dining vouchers or some of the tourism related activities has yet been used because it was going to be rolling out over a number of months. Um I'm not but I'm not sure that we would have those records because that's being um administered by the South Australian government.
I'd like you to take on notice a breakdown of what you know is spent and not spent. Um I would also like and perhaps um I don't know whether it's Ms. Maguire or somebody else. Um in terms of what has been what money has been transferred to the state government. Can I have a you you must have a sense of that.
Yes, Senator. Um, so the Australian government has provided $68.5 million in total since uh July last year. That's been in three different packages and all that funding has been provided.
>> So that's all gone out the door. >> Oh, sorry. Correct.
>> Can can we unpack that a bit? >> Which which elements are those? the first package um went immediately. as part of the second package um there were processes for the South Australian government to put in place with local government and so on providing us some advice about that then that payment is able to be made >> and they haven't provided that to you yet? >> Not as yet. >> And when would you would you have expected that by now? >> No, it's not due. we have left the date to be able to be provided to us um within the next few months and they we understand that they're on track to be able to do that. >> And can you just remind me what was that second package in relation to the local government for? >> So the second package was um made up of the um so it was $6.5 million. It was support for co coastal councils to service their communities. that work is already under underway and going. This would be like a reimbursement to the state government in order for works done. >> Um, Algabloom Research which was a NESP Commonwealth funded Commonwealth run piece and then um, Aqua Watch in the CSRO which was internal to the Australian government as well. So that's
>> this you might remember this was the second package announced by the prime minister when he visited Kangaroo Island and Adelaide. Yeah. >> Um uh so and my understanding is that the South Australian government's intention was to primarily use the money designated for local government to assist with beach cleanup work which is obviously been ongoing.
>> Yes. So the research there's there's two research elements there. Um the the money to the CSRO. How much was that?
>> That was $2 million for Aquaatch.
>> $2 million for Aquaatch. And the and and what was the other research project and
of um NESP the national environmental science program that's um administered by the department um and so there's a number of projects and that's about 250,000
>> and is that been spent?
>> So those projects have commenced.
>> And what what so uh and they're being
involving um for example CSRO, a range of South Australian research organizations including um individuals from like SARI and so forth. So there's a it's a national program that draws on national experience.
>> Yes. And so what what have they found so
>> I don't have an update on um where they're at in those projects. Those projects have, you know, commenced but
do we we must there must be some way of having an understanding as to what they're doing, what they're learning, what the outcome's going to be.
>> Senator, maybe Dean Goodson, Deputy Secretary, maybe we can take that on notice and come back to you on where the research is up to and what the expected time frames are because I don't think we
>> Okay. Okay. Um, thank you. Is there somebody who is specifically in charge of running that in terms of from a departmental level?
>> They're part of the um administration of the national environmental science program NESP.
>> And is there an actual officer? What I'm trying to [laughter] if I'm going to put some questions on notice, I want to make sure it goes to the right person and the right part of the department.
>> Senator, don't worry about that. We will
>> Don't worry about that. No, just just in
the sense that it's absolutely in the department. It's in my group. Okay. >> It's Maya Stewart Fox is the division head responsible for the National saying is you you don't have to indicate person. That's I'm just trying to make
>> Um the $2 million for Aqua Watch at the CSRO um what's happened there?
So a number of um planning um has commenced between CSRO Aquawatch and the South Australian government. Um they've commenced rolling out further monitoring um uh boys and so forth. So um that's part of a broader piece that um was an existing program that the South Australian government um and the um CSRO through the Aquaatch program really were were leading. Um and probably further questions on Aquaatch to the outcomes um would be probably best provided to um
>> CSRO. >> Is that what you were going to suggest?
>> Yeah, it was CS. [laughter]
>> Uh funny that. Um could I and so then the third there's then so that's the second package, the 6.5 million and then there was the third package for the third part of the announcement. How much was that worth?
So the third package was 48 million. >> And so that was um in contribution to the summer plan.
>> Yes. And so how much is that how much is of that has been spent or has all of that money being transferred to the South Austral?
>> That money has been transferred.
>> It's all been transferred. um and what feedback or um reconciliation is it being expected from the South Australian government on
>> So I think broadly we have regular engagement with the South South Australian colleagues to understand um where things are sort of at, how they're going, what particular matters are coming up. Um, we also then have through the federation funding agreements there's particular reporting requirements that the South Australian
I'm worried about the lack of ecological impact assessment. Um, there was some commitments undertaken to do that. Could I have an update on that in particular?
So the ecological impact assessments are still ongoing um given the nature of the algoloom um and it where it's now impacting >> um so it is an ongoing body of work. We get updates through um where we sit as a department on the South Australian government's science advisory panel. So we sit on that and get regular updates including through um so both the science panel and engagement with the South Australian government the so the work is continuing it's underway um we don't have detailed reports and so forth um to us as yet
>> I guess I'm a bit worried about this because there was a commitment that those assessments would be fasttracked and and federal government money is meant to be being spent to help that happen faster um and there's been no public data released by the South Australian government. I feel like they're sitting on their sit they're sitting on it. They don't want people to really know. We're on the on the eve of a state election. Um and frankly, [laughter] you know, the environment is is not doing well.
>> I I think everyone acknowledges the really significant environmental impact that this event has caused. I don't think there's any any evidence to support your claim that the South Australian government is sitting on information. Um, I think you may be thinking of a couple of different aspects of of our response. So, my recollection is that the the the total funding package that we've provided to the South Australian government does include some funding for a level of environmental remediation, restocking of fish, things like that. >> U, which again, the officials could talk to you in more detail if you'd like. The other thing you may be thinking of is the request that I made of the threatened species scientific committee and that's where this fasttracking point came up and we would be able no doubt they will be appearing or they're available to give evidence. They could give you uh an update on how that process is going.
>> Um that would be good because again there's been no data released about any of that.
>> Well that's because that that process is still underway. So what to be clear as as as you would know um every year the threatened species scientific committee uh receives nominations from members of the public scientist conservation groups about species that should be considered for listing as endangered, critically endangered, whatever it might be. What I did was ask the threatened species scientific committee to begin considering whether any marine species should be listed in that way. So that's something they probably would have got around to in their usual work. I asked them to prioritize that and there's a there's a public consultation process um or or a sort of a nomination process where people can nominate particular species that they want examined. That nomination process doesn't close until the 31st of March this year and and so people can continue
>> under this fasttracking.
>> Correct. Yeah. The it's fasttracked in the sense that that it would have been a matter for the threatened species scientific committee to decide at some point in the future when they even began that process. >> What I did was bring that forward. But the process starts with the public nomination uh which finishes on the 31st of March. And at that point the committee will then consider the science etc. So it's not really surprising that that hasn't become public yet.
>> So we don't know if there's any so there has been no decisions made yet by the committee as to what species could be uplisted or
>> prior I'm aware of but again there would be officials who can answer that if you'd like them brought to the table.
So, uh, Senator, all I will say is that we've already begun discussions with the threatened science threatened species scientific committee to take a look at their forward work program. Exactly as the minister said, the, uh, species affected by the algo bloom will be a high priority. Um, but I'll turn to Dr. Kiessling to add additional information if that's helpful.
>> Thank you. [clears throat]
>> Thanks, Senator. Um, Ilsa Keiesling, I'm acting head of division for the bio biodiversity division. Uh Senator um as the minister has already said the um public nomination process is currently open. That closes on the 31st of March. Also as the minister has said that uh public nomination process was opened early. In fact it opened on the 22nd of October of last year to give people plenty of time to consider the science and to bring forward any species or ecosystems that are at risk of extinction due to the algal bloom. Uh there are no results of that public nomination process at this point in time. It is open and it is only after the public cons uh public nomination process closes that the threatened species scientific committee will consider those nominations to consider whether they're eligible and will also consider whether or not that they would be um worth pursuing for a full assessment as to whether they are at risk of extinction.
>> Was there and and we've obviously got the threatened species committee um yes uh before us later today. Um was there uh new money allocated at all to this process specifically for the toxic algoloom?
>> Not that I'm aware of. I mean there is there is capacity under um whether it be the law or policy for the minister of the day to priorit or to ask the committee to prioritize certain things. It was done after Black Summer >> um for example um where again and where again the committee would in its usual course of business at some point in the future start looking at this >> but because of the scale of the event that was why it was brought forward in both those cases black summer and here that I mean again it's for the committee to talk to when they appear but I think one of the challenges we all have with this event is that it is it is ongoing and so we don't yet know what the full impact will be we do know that it's significant right now and that's why we thought it was a good idea to at least start work on this.
>> Yes. I I guess my concern is yes it is ongoing and yet there's no there's no pause on
>> Well, I think the South Australian government has restricted fishing at in some parts
>> in some areas but not you know not in Spencer Golf for example which is where fishermen saying they still haven't caught any calamari >> for you know we're now nearly on well we're on 10 months.
>> Yeah.
>> Like it's extraordinary.
>> It's had a very significant impact and and you know I guess that's one of the reasons why we are jointly funding with the South Australian government financial support for those fishes.
>> Yes. Um I I am concerned uh it was revealed in the South Australian Parliament that there was no new funding uh that had been provided to the South Australia department to conduct uh their work as part of the ecological impact assessment. So I'm just they haven't allocated any money. They haven't asked you for any extra money. Um you haven't allocated any money. How is this all meant to be done and prioritized if
>> Well, the threatened species scientific committee has an ongoing budget that they they use for all of their work and that work will now include
>> I understand that but in order to get that it's not this it's not the threatened species committee that goes down and does all of the studies and the work to get the information and no one in South Australia is putting any money any extra money into making sure those assessments can happen fast.
>> Well, I I think I think it would be a good idea if we explore this in more detail with the threatened species committee when they arrive because I think you'll find that they are engaged in that process in examining what is the scientific data but but I don't know what steps they take but they will be
have a confirmation that there hasn't been any request from the South Australian government for new money specifically to help conduct the ecological impact assessments?
>> No, Senator. However, we have been working directly with the South Australian government to, if you think about it, we normally process around 100 assessments or so a year. Um we're doing that for the most part in collaboration with states who are bringing forward different species for uh alignment between the Commonwealth and the state. Um but that those conversations are act actively underway. As the minister said, it's not as if without additional money that South Australia doesn't have resources to put in this space. It's not as if we don't have money to put in this space. Both both are are funded and are operating. What is happening though is these species are coming to the top of the list for the assessment. Mhm.
>> Okay. Well, I think we're just we we will have to spend some time with the threatened species commissioner as a result and committee as a result of that. Um what about the broader ecological restoration part which is really what you know especially if this bloom is going to um coming back or or not you kind of waning and then blooming again. Um what do we where's the prioritization of the
within the funding that's already been provided there is some money available for restocking of fish etc and officials could take you through that detail it I will it's not an enormous amount of money because the priority right now has been you know supporting communities uh impacted economically undertaking research efforts that's been the priority and I guess the the requests that we've received from the South Australian government to date have been about dealing with those immediate priorities. There was obviously the summer plan when there was enormous concern about what impact it would have on summer. >> I think it [clears throat] is understood that it is likely there is going to need to be some restoration work occur. Um a and you know I don't want to speak for the South Australian government but I think that they are probably trying to determine what sort of restoration work is required before making that ask that you know they've got a substantial amount of money available now um to deal with those immediate priorities including some environmental restoration um but that is going to be a longerterm
effort that's required. H can um can we get the specific figures on what has been put aside for restoration so far from the federal government?
>> Um so part of the summer plan uh package um I can just give you some examples of uh where some of the funding is going in relation to restoration. So uh there's about 4.8 million going to seaggrass and blue carbon restoration research and pilots. Uh there's uh 9.4 million towards native oyster reef restoration.
Um >> how much was that? Sorry.
>> 9.4.
>> 9.4. Yeah.
>> Uh 1.8 million towards communitybased shellfish reef restoration. Um around 4 million to threatened and uh vulnerable marine sp Oh, that's an education program. Sorry. and um the recreational grow uh 3.7 million to growing our recreational uh fishing sector which includes uh funding for some restocking the minister
>> and as this was all part of the summer plan does that mean that money is already those projects are already happening that is meant to be being is expected that that will all be spent by
I don't know that there's an expectation that it would all be spent by the end of summer, but the South Australian government um have been really focusing on being able to deliver that within that period.
>> Could we when um you've taken on notice the question to come back with knowing what's been spent where, I'd obviously like to to understand based on the breakdown that you've just given us there of those four or five different elements of particularly environmental restoration. Um I just wanted to um the minister you did say that um uh we haven't responded to the you haven't responded yet to the Senate inquiries report and recommendations you within the 3 months 3 months is up tomorrow.
>> There you go.
>> So um uh do you think we'll get it tomorrow?
>> Uh I don't know that we've received a draft of that response yet. Um I might be wrong about that. Um, but you know, we will we will seek to respond to that uh report as quickly as we can. I mean, my recollection is that there's a number of the recommendations that we've already acted on >> um and we're considering the remainder
>> Has the draft been completed?
>> No, not yet, Senator.
>> Um I'm happy to share the
>> noting to be fair some of that three months crossed over the Christmas period.
>> Yeah. you know. >> well, a lot of public holidays in there.
>> Is that a reference to Senator McDonald's?